So this Department of Water Resources representative stops at a Texas ranch and talks with an old rancher. He tells the rancher, I need to inspect your ranch for your water allocation.
The old rancher says, Okay, but don't go in that field over there.
The Water representative says, Mister, I have the authority of the Federal Government with me. See this card? This card means I am allowed to go WHEREVER I WISH on any agricultural land. No questions asked or answered. Have I made myself clear? Do you understand?
The old rancher nods politely and goes about his chores.
Later, the old rancher hears loud screams and spies the Water Rep running for his life and close behind is the rancher's bull. The bull is gaining with every step.
The Rep is clearly terrified, so the old rancher immediately throws down his tools, runs to the fence and yells at the top of his lungs.....
The state was replacing wooden water mains with ductile iron pipe and the Feds were building the interstate through the Town. The northeast part of the state is still impoverished - just like here.
You may know people who are proud to collect unemployment but not everyone who collects unemployment is a deadbeat or is proud to collect it. And yes I think that there were people on unemployment selling wood for cash. The max unemployment back then was around $70 week.
By the way, the poor job market in the northeast is why I moved to Arizona 28 years ago. Best decision I ever made.
I'm not following you. The laid off Citizens that collected unemployment (some were to proud to accept it) would cut wood until they could find work or move. This usually happened when there was snow on the ground and no work to be found. This was right when family farms started to die off back there. The people I was referring to earlier that hung out on construction sites hoping to be hired were all citizens. It was is area of deep poverty. Back then I think the per capita income was the second lowest right behind Mississippi.
The scheme in the 70's was to cut wood while on unemployment, keep enough to heat the house/trailer and sell the rest for cash. Probably is still going on today. There are actually way more trees in VT than there was 100 years ago. The forests have reclaimed much of the previously cleared farmland.
Back then the illegal immigrant workers that had people upset were the French Canadian sheetrockers. They went back and forth through the border checkpoints but were not legally allowed to work. The border guards just sort of winked at the tools and materials.
Back in the 1970's I worked in Vermont on construction sites where unemployed men would wait around all day hoping to get hired. The unemployment in some of the small towns was over 50%. It was so sad. I can't actually suggest that unemployed people should do the same today.
Some very interesting and thought provoking discussion in this string. Good arguements on both sides of the issues.
I noticed that Mrs. Randall asked a question a couple of posts back that was sort of directed to me and has not been answered. The question was "If they are such good workers why are there so many standing on the street corners every morning or selling drugs, or robbing someone?"
The answer of why so many are standing on street corners is that they are looking for work. What a concept. I'm not sure if I have ever seen an unemployed citizen on the corner looking for work (not in 20 years anyhow). Asking for money maybe but not looking for work.I guess looking for work on a street corner is beneath most citizens but asking for money is not. Hmmm. The work ethic thing again perhaps? I have not seen any drug sales or robbery by the day laborers on the corners - just people (aka dangerous criminals)looking for work.
I noticed a couple of items missing from Tom's list of heinous things that all the illegal immigrants are responsible for. Some of these are:
Performing the actual labor to construct roads, bridges, houses, schools, hospitals, water projects,commercial ventures, power projects and many other facilities from which most residents of Arizona get some form of benefit.
I'm not disputing Tom's list but to be fair I will defend the good work and work ethic of many illegal immigrants in this state.
I actually don't really have really strong opinions on this issue. My views are tainted by the work I have seen done by illegal aliens in Arizona. Many of the large public works projects built in Arizona in the last 2 decades were done in part by illegal immigrants (CAP was one parts of upgrades to Salt River Project was another) - contractors paid them the same prevailing wages that legal workers received - they were hired mainly because there was not enough legal labor available.Does it make it right - no. But the State is benefiting by the improved infrastructure. Now this may be a generational thing but I have observed that the overall work ethic of the legal and illegal labor from other counties to be higher than native born workers - this has occured in the last 10 to 15 years. Perhaps because of my respect for these workers I tend to hope the solution ends up being one that does not unduly disrupt lives and families. I'm really not a bleeding heart, it's just when it gets down to the actual individual level I don't think a sudden shift to strict enforcement of laws that have been ignored is the way to go. I also question whether the aggregate effect on the economy is negative. Many many of us have benefited from low cost labor in countless intangible ways - I certainly can't say it offsets the costs to services but it might. The 14% I referenced in an earlier post were citzens.
As far as playing devils advocate well maybe -this would be pretty boring if we all agreed with each other.
I'm not really sure what you mean. Who said anything about "illegal Americans, or illegal citizens" new concept to me. Roughly 14% of the citizens in this country are Hispanic. My previous comment was a response to Tom's comment "Do what the citizens of this country want." My point is that it really depends on which citizens he is reffering to. I am certain that the 14% I mention are not in favor of the lock em up or ship em out approach. The hard line solutions sound good but there will never be the political will to implement them, and even if there was I still doubt it would work.
This is actually kind of fun. I wish I had more time to do this.
By the way Pat although I don't know you I really enjoy reading your posts and actually agree with most of them.
9 May 2008 at 3:16 p.m.
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Joel (Joel Mona) says…
So this Department of Water Resources representative stops at a Texas ranch and talks with an old rancher. He tells the rancher, I need to inspect your ranch for your water allocation.
The old rancher says, Okay, but don't go in that field over there.
The Water representative says, Mister, I have the authority of the Federal Government with me. See this card? This card means I am allowed to go WHEREVER I WISH on any agricultural land. No questions asked or answered. Have I made myself clear? Do you understand?
The old rancher nods politely and goes about his chores.
Later, the old rancher hears loud screams and spies the Water Rep running for his life and close behind is the rancher's bull. The bull is gaining with every step.
The Rep is clearly terrified, so the old rancher immediately throws down his tools, runs to the fence and yells at the top of his lungs.....
Your card! Show him your card!
On Let's lighten up a little.
8 May 2008 at 4:27 p.m.
Suggest removal
Joel (Joel Mona) says…
The state was replacing wooden water mains with ductile iron pipe and the Feds were building the interstate through the Town. The northeast part of the state is still impoverished - just like here.
You may know people who are proud to collect unemployment but not everyone who collects unemployment is a deadbeat or is proud to collect it. And yes I think that there were people on unemployment selling wood for cash. The max unemployment back then was around $70 week.
By the way, the poor job market in the northeast is why I moved to Arizona 28 years ago. Best decision I ever made.
On Congratulations to the people of Phoenix!
8 May 2008 at 6:28 a.m.
Suggest removal
Joel (Joel Mona) says…
I'm not following you. The laid off Citizens that collected unemployment (some were to proud to accept it) would cut wood until they could find work or move. This usually happened when there was snow on the ground and no work to be found. This was right when family farms started to die off back there. The people I was referring to earlier that hung out on construction sites hoping to be hired were all citizens. It was is area of deep poverty. Back then I think the per capita income was the second lowest right behind Mississippi.
On Congratulations to the people of Phoenix!
8 May 2008 at 5:50 a.m.
Suggest removal
Joel (Joel Mona) says…
The scheme in the 70's was to cut wood while on unemployment, keep enough to heat the house/trailer and sell the rest for cash. Probably is still going on today. There are actually way more trees in VT than there was 100 years ago. The forests have reclaimed much of the previously cleared farmland.
Back then the illegal immigrant workers that had people upset were the French Canadian sheetrockers. They went back and forth through the border checkpoints but were not legally allowed to work. The border guards just sort of winked at the tools and materials.
On Congratulations to the people of Phoenix!
7 May 2008 at 9:51 p.m.
Suggest removal
Joel (Joel Mona) says…
Back in the 1970's I worked in Vermont on construction sites where unemployed men would wait around all day hoping to get hired. The unemployment in some of the small towns was over 50%. It was so sad. I can't actually suggest that unemployed people should do the same today.
On Congratulations to the people of Phoenix!
7 May 2008 at 9:08 p.m.
Suggest removal
Joel (Joel Mona) says…
Some very interesting and thought provoking discussion in this string. Good arguements on both sides of the issues.
I noticed that Mrs. Randall asked a question a couple of posts back that was sort of directed to me and has not been answered. The question was "If they are such good workers why are there so many standing on the street corners every morning or selling drugs, or robbing someone?"
The answer of why so many are standing on street corners is that they are looking for work. What a concept. I'm not sure if I have ever seen an unemployed citizen on the corner looking for work (not in 20 years anyhow). Asking for money maybe but not looking for work.I guess looking for work on a street corner is beneath most citizens but asking for money is not. Hmmm. The work ethic thing again perhaps? I have not seen any drug sales or robbery by the day laborers on the corners - just people (aka dangerous criminals)looking for work.
On Congratulations to the people of Phoenix!
6 May 2008 at 4:38 p.m.
Suggest removal
Joel (Joel Mona) says…
I noticed a couple of items missing from Tom's list of heinous things that all the illegal immigrants are responsible for. Some of these are:
Performing the actual labor to construct roads, bridges, houses, schools, hospitals, water projects,commercial ventures, power projects and many other facilities from which most residents of Arizona get some form of benefit.
I'm not disputing Tom's list but to be fair I will defend the good work and work ethic of many illegal immigrants in this state.
On Congratulations to the people of Phoenix!
29 February 2008 at 2:41 p.m.
Suggest removal
Joel (Joel Mona) says…
I'm with you on welfare, nothing irks me like able bodied people on the dole when there are jobs to be found.
On Welcome illegals, and other drains on our tax base.
29 February 2008 at 11:35 a.m.
Suggest removal
Joel (Joel Mona) says…
I actually don't really have really strong opinions on this issue. My views are tainted by the work I have seen done by illegal aliens in Arizona. Many of the large public works projects built in Arizona in the last 2 decades were done in part by illegal immigrants (CAP was one parts of upgrades to Salt River Project was another) - contractors paid them the same prevailing wages that legal workers received - they were hired mainly because there was not enough legal labor available.Does it make it right - no. But the State is benefiting by the improved infrastructure.
Now this may be a generational thing but I have observed that the overall work ethic of the legal and illegal labor from other counties to be higher than native born workers - this has occured in the last 10 to 15 years. Perhaps because of my respect for these workers I tend to hope the solution ends up being one that does not unduly disrupt lives and families.
I'm really not a bleeding heart, it's just when it gets down to the actual individual level I don't think a sudden shift to strict enforcement of laws that have been ignored is the way to go.
I also question whether the aggregate effect on the economy is negative. Many many of us have benefited from low cost labor in countless intangible ways - I certainly can't say it offsets the costs to services but it might.
The 14% I referenced in an earlier post were citzens.
As far as playing devils advocate well maybe -this would be pretty boring if we all agreed with each other.
On Welcome illegals, and other drains on our tax base.
29 February 2008 at 7:22 a.m.
Suggest removal
Joel (Joel Mona) says…
I'm not really sure what you mean. Who said anything about "illegal Americans, or illegal citizens" new concept to me. Roughly 14% of the citizens in this country are Hispanic. My previous comment was a response to Tom's comment "Do what the citizens of this country want." My point is that it really depends on which citizens he is reffering to. I am certain that the 14% I mention are not in favor of the lock em up or ship em out approach.
The hard line solutions sound good but there will never be the political will to implement them, and even if there was I still doubt it would work.
This is actually kind of fun. I wish I had more time to do this.
By the way Pat although I don't know you I really enjoy reading your posts and actually agree with most of them.
On Welcome illegals, and other drains on our tax base.