Tom, Typically I will go for weeks at a time between blog visits. Sorry if this tested your patience.
Regarding your specific question, the big picture answer is that Arizona law is complicated. Each particular subject (e.g. zoning change request, Conditional Use Permit (CUP), unified development code change, etc) has a different process description under the law. The only direct authority that P&Z has is to approve or disapprove CUPs and sometimes minor land divisions. Even then the decision can be appealed to the Town Council.
In the case of a General Plan Major Amendment, the P&Z Commission does vote yes or no. By state law it is a decision, not a recommendation. However, also by law, the application then must go to Town Council regardless of the P&Z vote. So in effect, the P&Z “decision” is no more than a recommendation. Yes, I know -- send your thanks to the legislators at the State Capitol.
Relative to my original point you stated, “I was startled by the way the process was characterized in the article”. Rest assured that many of us are “startled” by how community happenings and issues are characterized in the Roundup. I frequently see a Roundup reporter present at events where my observation of what transpires varies tremendously from what is eventually “reported”. Errors of fact are far too numerous and fall unevenly toward one particular view, to be written off as incidental, caused by time constraints or the need for summation. I would not recommend referencing a Roundup article as fact, absent of independent verification.
Also, I do not agree with your contention: “As for attending meetings, I doubt that would tell me any more about the process than I already know since all I would see is one facet of that process. That wouldn’t help much”. Town staff, as well as board, committee and commission chairpersons frequently provide discussion on all facets of the particular process before them. This is done intentionally to provide the public with as complete an understanding as possible. You have explained why you cannot attend, but you could observe by either local cable Channel 4 or via computer link. Viewing the meeting first hand, you would see a very detailed and complete description of the entire process of General Plan Amendments. Last Thursday, the process was once again discussed (and broadcast) in full detail before the Town Council, including a lengthy legal description directly addressing your question.
Actually Tom, in my opinion you are wrong. Thank you Ruby Finney for your excellent and on target response.
Let me add the following: Members of Boards and Commissions are volunteer citizens who are selected, appointed and sometimes removed by the Town Council. If the “dog” doesn’t like the “tail” then it can change the tail.
Through the selection/appointment process the board and commissions are usually populated with people that have unique knowledge, experience and skills that apply to the duties of the board or commission and that enable them to provide the Council with well-considered recommendations and to save the Council a lot of time and effort. They typically do this very well. I don’t see how this translates to undo “power”. In accordance with town code and state regulation, there is nothing that the P&Z Commission can do that can’t be overruled by Town Council.
All Planning and Zoning Commission meetings are video recorded and made available on-line to anyone (including Council members) who wants to review them. Additionally, minutes are taken by town staff and submitted to Town Council. Furthermore, town staff reports at Town Council meetings with a summary of the matter at hand, and are there to answer any questions from Council about what transpired during the P&Z meeting.
It is the responsibility of Town Councilors to avail themselves of the information. Presumably they do their homework, prepare themselves to discuss the items shown on the agenda, and ask questions when needed. If there is a problem with Town Councilors not doing due diligence and failing to exercise their authority appropriately, changing how an advisory board or commission works will not fix the problem. I am NOT saying that such a problem exists with the Payson Town Council.
Tom, I have a real concern with how you came to your conclusion. You base your opinion on quotes from the Roundup. For example you reference the quote “When it became clear that the commission would reject the plan if forced to a vote…” Newspaper articles these days are all too frequently inaccurate, and certainly the Roundup is no exception. Regularly, errors of fact can be found in published articles. Certainly in this particular case the quote is based entirely on the reporter’s conjecture, and from my point of view as Chairman of the P&Z Commission the quote has no legitimate basis. However, even if P&Z had voted to rejecte the plan, it would still have gone, with no modification, to Town Council for their decision. That’s how the process works.
I suggest that if you want to take pot shots at the hardworking volunteers serving the town, that you take the trouble to actually attend the meetings and gain your opinions from first hand experience.
I have hiked to the "railroad tunnel to nowhere" before and it is an interesting and challenging hike. The current issue of the Rim Review has a story on it so I decided to lead a Payson Packers hiking group there today. I want to warn anyone thinking about this hike. We were within about 100 yards of the tunnel when a very aggressive hive of bees, living in a nearby hollow log, attacked our group. Six hikers were stung with one person receiving five bee stings. The bees were so aggressive that I would guess they could be the Africanized variety. The terrain is so rugged at that point, it is impossible to run. Fortunately none of our group had an allergic reaction.
Did you hear her say that "in California they have stopped building homes". Implying that Arizona must grow to accommodate them. Wonder where she got that "fact"?
Tom, You wrote: "This is the first time in my recollection that the idea of assassinating a candidate for President has ever arisen during an election." Ever hear of Robert F. Kennedy?
Tom, I didn't realize my point was so unclear. First, let me say that I completely understand average, mean, median, mode, standard deviation, etc. I am well experienced with the application of statistics.
My point has to do with how often people around Payson, including reporters, self-proclaimed housing experts and even council members state as if it were fact, that average (or mean, median & mode) house prices somehow are related to the availability of "affordable" housing. The most disturbing comments are the ones that try to define "average salary" and then relate that to "average house prices".
The average price of housing is not relavant to "affordable" housing availability unless placed in the proper context. Few seem willing to do that.
I have asked how many people are there in our area that fit the federal and town criteria for "workforce housing" qualification that do not have or cannot find housing. I have yet to see an answer.
What is needed is specific information of how many people, at what salary level are looking for housing and cannot find it. The reasons why they cannot find it need to be defined and quantified. Only then can the town properly understand and address the problem.
Tom, At the top of this thread you start with the statement : "A single glance at the average price of a house in Payson, about $230,000, makes it obvious that there is a desperate need for affordable housing."
Please tell me how the average price of a house makes it obvious there is a desperate need. What is it about an average price that tells you what the low end (affordable) prices are? Is it possible there could be many low priced houses available while the average is driven up by a few extremely high prices? Isn't an average just that - an average?
I am not saying there is not a need. I just want to understand the logic of the statement.
Similarly, there are many in this town who say that an average salary should buy an average priced house. Where did that notion come from? When I started my career and family, I needed a house. Even though I got a good job, worked hard and saved everything I could, it was years before I could afford even a bottom value, entry level house. What has changed in our culture?
Marylou, At the council meetings and candidate debates Mayor Edwards has repeatedly thanked Buzz Walker, Sam Streichman, Tim Wright, Lynn Godfrey, Debra Galbraith, LaRon Garret, Senator Kyl, prior Payson Mayor's and all the many others who have worked on Blue Ridge water access over the past years. He has done the same in his print ads in the paper. I think he has done a good job of trying to give credit where credit is due.
Not only has the Roundup displayed a clear bias against Bob Edwards and written "character assassination" articles against him; now when they think they have something negative to report but it can't be attributed to Edwards, they just switch names.
Case in point: In Peter Aleshire's Feb 22 piece titled "Session on slowing traffic calms debate" they write "Mayor Edwards will supports [sic] the extension but only if the town can put up some drastic traffic control measure -- such as gates at the highway that would prevent people from turning onto Phoenix Street or Mud Springs on the weekend".
In my opinion such a "drastic" measure could be unsafe and would likely be opposed by ADOT. The only problem is Bob Edwards never said anything like this. But several people did hear a similar comment made in a recent public political forum. Gee, you think maybe the other candidate said it? You think maybe Aleshire can't keep his notes straight as to who said what? What a concept.
15 November 2008 at 5:59 p.m.
Suggest removal
HBaas (Hal Baas) says…
Tom,
Typically I will go for weeks at a time between blog visits. Sorry if this tested your patience.
Regarding your specific question, the big picture answer is that Arizona law is complicated. Each particular subject (e.g. zoning change request, Conditional Use Permit (CUP), unified development code change, etc) has a different process description under the law. The only direct authority that P&Z has is to approve or disapprove CUPs and sometimes minor land divisions. Even then the decision can be appealed to the Town Council.
In the case of a General Plan Major Amendment, the P&Z Commission does vote yes or no. By state law it is a decision, not a recommendation. However, also by law, the application then must go to Town Council regardless of the P&Z vote. So in effect, the P&Z “decision” is no more than a recommendation. Yes, I know -- send your thanks to the legislators at the State Capitol.
Relative to my original point you stated, “I was startled by the way the process was characterized in the article”. Rest assured that many of us are “startled” by how community happenings and issues are characterized in the Roundup. I frequently see a Roundup reporter present at events where my observation of what transpires varies tremendously from what is eventually “reported”. Errors of fact are far too numerous and fall unevenly toward one particular view, to be written off as incidental, caused by time constraints or the need for summation. I would not recommend referencing a Roundup article as fact, absent of independent verification.
Also, I do not agree with your contention: “As for attending meetings, I doubt that would tell me any more about the process than I already know since all I would see is one facet of that process. That wouldn’t help much”. Town staff, as well as board, committee and commission chairpersons frequently provide discussion on all facets of the particular process before them. This is done intentionally to provide the public with as complete an understanding as possible. You have explained why you cannot attend, but you could observe by either local cable Channel 4 or via computer link. Viewing the meeting first hand, you would see a very detailed and complete description of the entire process of General Plan Amendments. Last Thursday, the process was once again discussed (and broadcast) in full detail before the Town Council, including a lengthy legal description directly addressing your question.
On Is the tail wagging the dog in City Hall?
13 November 2008 at 12:59 p.m.
Suggest removal
HBaas (Hal Baas) says…
Actually Tom, in my opinion you are wrong. Thank you Ruby Finney for your excellent and on target response.
Let me add the following:
Members of Boards and Commissions are volunteer citizens who are selected, appointed and sometimes removed by the Town Council. If the “dog” doesn’t like the “tail” then it can change the tail.
Through the selection/appointment process the board and commissions are usually populated with people that have unique knowledge, experience and skills that apply to the duties of the board or commission and that enable them to provide the Council with well-considered recommendations and to save the Council a lot of time and effort. They typically do this very well. I don’t see how this translates to undo “power”. In accordance with town code and state regulation, there is nothing that the P&Z Commission can do that can’t be overruled by Town Council.
All Planning and Zoning Commission meetings are video recorded and made available on-line to anyone (including Council members) who wants to review them. Additionally, minutes are taken by town staff and submitted to Town Council. Furthermore, town staff reports at Town Council meetings with a summary of the matter at hand, and are there to answer any questions from Council about what transpired during the P&Z meeting.
It is the responsibility of Town Councilors to avail themselves of the information. Presumably they do their homework, prepare themselves to discuss the items shown on the agenda, and ask questions when needed. If there is a problem with Town Councilors not doing due diligence and failing to exercise their authority appropriately, changing how an advisory board or commission works will not fix the problem. I am NOT saying that such a problem exists with the Payson Town Council.
Tom, I have a real concern with how you came to your conclusion. You base your opinion on quotes from the Roundup. For example you reference the quote “When it became clear that the commission would reject the plan if forced to a vote…” Newspaper articles these days are all too frequently inaccurate, and certainly the Roundup is no exception. Regularly, errors of fact can be found in published articles. Certainly in this particular case the quote is based entirely on the reporter’s conjecture, and from my point of view as Chairman of the P&Z Commission the quote has no legitimate basis. However, even if P&Z had voted to rejecte the plan, it would still have gone, with no modification, to Town Council for their decision. That’s how the process works.
I suggest that if you want to take pot shots at the hardworking volunteers serving the town, that you take the trouble to actually attend the meetings and gain your opinions from first hand experience.
On Is the tail wagging the dog in City Hall?
4 November 2008 at 3:02 p.m.
Suggest removal
HBaas (Hal Baas) says…
I have hiked to the "railroad tunnel to nowhere" before and it is an interesting and challenging hike. The current issue of the Rim Review has a story on it so I decided to lead a Payson Packers hiking group there today. I want to warn anyone thinking about this hike. We were within about 100 yards of the tunnel when a very aggressive hive of bees, living in a nearby hollow log, attacked our group. Six hikers were stung with one person receiving five bee stings. The bees were so aggressive that I would guess they could be the Africanized variety. The terrain is so rugged at that point, it is impossible to run. Fortunately none of our group had an allergic reaction.
On Railroad Tunnel
30 October 2008 at 2:58 p.m.
Suggest removal
HBaas (Hal Baas) says…
Did you hear her say that "in California they have stopped building homes". Implying that Arizona must grow to accommodate them. Wonder where she got that "fact"?
On KMOG today
31 August 2008 at 5:20 p.m.
Suggest removal
HBaas (Hal Baas) says…
Tom, You wrote: "This is the first time in my recollection that the idea of assassinating a candidate for President has ever arisen during an election." Ever hear of Robert F. Kennedy?
On She did it again!
1 June 2008 at 4:41 p.m.
Suggest removal
HBaas (Hal Baas) says…
Tom,
I didn't realize my point was so unclear. First, let me say that I completely understand average, mean, median, mode, standard deviation, etc. I am well experienced with the application of statistics.
My point has to do with how often people around Payson, including reporters, self-proclaimed housing experts and even council members state as if it were fact, that average (or mean, median & mode) house prices somehow are related to the availability of "affordable" housing.
The most disturbing comments are the ones that try to define "average salary" and then relate that to "average house prices".
The average price of housing is not relavant to "affordable" housing availability unless placed in the proper context. Few seem willing to do that.
I have asked how many people are there in our area that fit the federal and town criteria for "workforce housing" qualification that do not have or cannot find housing. I have yet to see an answer.
What is needed is specific information of how many people, at what salary level are looking for housing and cannot find it. The reasons why they cannot find it need to be defined and quantified. Only then can the town properly understand and address the problem.
On Does anyone really want affordable housing built in Payson?
28 May 2008 at 6:56 p.m.
Suggest removal
HBaas (Hal Baas) says…
Tom, At the top of this thread you start with the statement : "A single glance at the average price of a house in Payson, about $230,000, makes it obvious that there is a desperate need for affordable housing."
Please tell me how the average price of a house makes it obvious there is a desperate need. What is it about an average price that tells you what the low end (affordable) prices are? Is it possible there could be many low priced houses available while the average is driven up by a few extremely high prices? Isn't an average just that - an average?
I am not saying there is not a need. I just want to understand the logic of the statement.
Similarly, there are many in this town who say that an average salary should buy an average priced house. Where did that notion come from? When I started my career and family, I needed a house. Even though I got a good job, worked hard and saved everything I could, it was years before I could afford even a bottom value, entry level house. What has changed in our culture?
On Does anyone really want affordable housing built in Payson?
5 March 2008 at 5:48 p.m.
Suggest removal
HBaas (Hal Baas) says…
Marylou,
At the council meetings and candidate debates Mayor Edwards has repeatedly thanked Buzz Walker, Sam Streichman, Tim Wright, Lynn Godfrey, Debra Galbraith, LaRon Garret, Senator Kyl, prior Payson Mayor's and all the many others who have worked on Blue Ridge water access over the past years. He has done the same in his print ads in the paper. I think he has done a good job of trying to give credit where credit is due.
On March 3 campaign financial reports
5 March 2008 at 12:07 p.m.
Suggest removal
HBaas (Hal Baas) says…
Marylou,
Could you please explain to me where you read or heard Bob Edwards claim that he "got the water to payson by him self" as you state above?
On March 3 campaign financial reports
24 February 2008 at 5:10 p.m.
Suggest removal
HBaas (Hal Baas) says…
Not only has the Roundup displayed a clear bias against Bob Edwards and written "character assassination" articles against him; now when they think they have something negative to report but it can't be attributed to Edwards, they just switch names.
Case in point: In Peter Aleshire's Feb 22 piece titled "Session on slowing traffic calms debate" they write "Mayor Edwards will supports [sic] the extension but only if the town can put up some drastic traffic control measure -- such as gates at the highway that would prevent people from turning onto Phoenix Street or Mud Springs on the weekend".
In my opinion such a "drastic" measure could be unsafe and would likely be opposed by ADOT. The only problem is Bob Edwards never said anything like this. But several people did hear a similar comment made in a recent public political forum. Gee, you think maybe the other candidate said it? You think maybe Aleshire can't keep his notes straight as to who said what? What a concept.
On How Bad Can the Reporting Get