Your Roundup

I know I am going to be in trouble for this, but what's new? I say what a lot of other people think they just keep thier mouth shut.
If the school had a strict dress code, and parents had any sense, possibly the child would not have been stabbed. I am not condonning the stabbing and think the person should be punished to the full extent of the law if he was not defending himself.
I know you are not supossed to judge a person by the way they look or dress.
Unattractive looking features can not be helped, but the way you dress and use cosmetics can be.
I am intimidated by the Goth look. I am not intimidated by many things, but this look is disgusting, and I go way around anyone that has the dyed black hair, lips, fingernails, and black clothes with skulls on them, or skulls hanging from thier rear view mirrors.
Is this a gang here and people don't realize it? I don't know what they are trying to prove, but I can give you the definition from The American Heritage Dictionary.

Goth: an uncultered or uncivilized person; barbarian

School uniforms (dress code) is the answer to a lot of today's "problems."

Why not a requirement for blue jeans (fitted and worn at natural waist), white tee or broadcloth shirt (unadorned) . This could be worn by both boys and girls. Or if girls prefer skirts, then a blue denim skirt (Knee length) and full length white tee shirt or blouse. No bare skin showing.
Body piercing jewelry to be removed for school attendance. Makeup restricted to lipstick .

Big problem? Not if everyone is required to do the same thing! This would eliminate some students from looking "different" from the others and a lot of jealousy because of fad clothes.

I have wondered for years why this hasn't been school policy everywhere. What is the purpose of school? I think it is to get an education and prepare for life in the career of choice. Therefore, the school is failing to teach young people HOW TO DRESS WHEN ASKING FOR EMPLOYMENT, how to learn social graces which are still required for real success in business, and most of all that what makes our country work is a system of laws (rules) which apply to everyone.

I also wish every school would have a requirement to understand a household budget and a checking account before graduation.

A large part of the problem is that parents don't insist that their children receive the education and training for college and business they are paying for. There seems to be a fear that the "rights" of the child are infringed.
Children do not have the same rules as adults until they ARE adults and the parents should apply some common sense in allowing some types of activities.This is truly a shame and a real loss to the children.

How about a requirement on how to count change without a computerized cash register telling you?

I agree Pat, the "Goth" look is very intimidating, and maybe that is exactly what the goth kid wants, so they can look tough. I don't know the facts, if it's a cult, a club, or what, and I'm just nuts enough to go over to the high school and talk to some of them and take pictures of them for my website. I think it would be a very interesting article and for sure interesting pictures :) I bet they would actually be alright with the idea, it can't be real pleasant to have people stabbing you because you look weird.

The other thing is the way the girls dress. I know it's the style, but somehow it looks a little too trashy as far as I'm concerned. They're trying to look as sexy as they can possibly look I guess.

Ruby, I like your idea of blue jeans, but not like the ones they wear that are showing all of the stomach and you know what. We probably sound like a bunch of old ladies, huh? (We are old ladies:)

So what do you think? Do you think I'll get the hell beat out of me if I try to talk to a few Goth kids? Do you think the school administrators would try to stop me?

I'll let you know how it turns out. If you never hear from me again you'll know who to look for :)

Now, back to NASCAR

PS, I will talk to school officials to ask permission to interview those kids, so no need to worry Pat. I wouldn't just yell "Hey, you in the black scary costume, come over here."

Thanks for the PS Dean. I was going to tell you to be sure and get permission.
Of course at lunch time they are all wandering the streets.
I wonder about the kids that are all standing around cars in the parking lot. They aren't getting in to go anywhere just leaning on the cars. What do you suppose they have in there?
I haven't seen a girl dressed proper at the schools in years.

No, Goth is not a gang style, it is an outward expression of their comfort level. Just as some youth like to wear western wear, others will wear preppy clothes, some ornate themselves in jock clothes and others just put on whatever is closest to their hands in the mornings. You have nothing to fear from kids dressed in all black, died hair, body piercings, etc. They are much more interested in their closest friends and musical choice than figuring out ways to harm our citizenry.

Say hello to them in a courteous fashion, see what happens. Compliment them for their strong sense of identity, whether or not you agree with it. See what happens. I dare ya...

- David

David, I remember the phase my Granddaughter went through, black fingernails, died her hair black, black clothes, she went to Payson High. It was simply because she thought it looked cool. She wasn't warped or anything, just liked the look. I saw her yesterday at her 25th birthday celebration. She's blond and beautiful. I teased her about being a quarter of a century old now. (That startled her a bit.)

Society has a way of forming instant opinions about someone because of the way they look. That's exactly why I want to talk to the kids and give them space on my website. Not that I think that being on my website is so special but it would be a way for the kids to give some insight on how they feel and how they are treated. And what kind of music they listen to, etc. Would also like to talk to some of the "jocks" and other kids to see how they are treated and how they treat others. It's easy to get a feeling of some one's attitude by just listening to them. It's not what they say, it's the way they say it.

The LOOK is intimidating so right away we think they are bad. I know my Granddaughter isn't bad, and the Goth phase didn't last long.

See Ya.

Comfort level?
What could be more comfortable than no clothes at all?
Would that be acceptable?

Calming devises for traffic. Comfort levels for the way you dress.
I am beginning to think I am from outer space and have lost touch with the english language.

No Pat, you are not from outer space, you just think the way you think and others think the way they think. Doesn't make you wrong, maybe a little "judgemental", but not wrong.

What do you think about the "spitting" the Little League kids did when they lined up to congratulate the winners of that game? They spit in their hands before the reached out to shake the hands of the winners. Where did they get that idea? Is it normally something done in baseball? Please don't tell me that's just a tradition.

There is a perfect example of a kid looking really cute but doing something totally nasty, in front of millions. I'd like someone to spit on them!!

Dean,
I think you are talking about the Goth thing me being judgemental.
I was talking about the way people are talking when they say comfort level and calming devises for traffic was why I felt I was from outer space.
As I said before more intimidated than judgemental, and you know I am not easily intimidated.

The spitting was terrible and I believe none of those kids should be allowed to play Little League again. Nor the coach be allowed to coach a team. I' m sure this is not the first time they did it.

My kids were never allowed to spit, even if they had something nasty in thier mouth, go to the bathroom or use a kleenex to get rid of it.
Now my oldest son uses copenhagen. Must be rebellion for not being able to spit when he was a kid. (:

I like Georgia style. They just won and went over and hugged all the of the Japanese team. The little pitcher hit the ground crying when the batter made the home run to win.

School uniforms should be as folows:

Boys:

Black pants or levis must hand 4 inches below the crack of their ass.
Shirts must be a minimum of 3 sizes to large
Hip chains cannot exceed 3 feet in length.
Hats: optional

Girls:
Mini skirts or shorts cut so 2 inches of butt flab hang out.
Halter tops or midrift tops must be worn without bras
Sandals must have 3 inch heals
All nose and tongue rings or studs must be cleaned annually.
Belly button rings or studs must have at least 2 colors matching tatoos.
Tattoos must have at least 3 colors matching hair.

Oh wait. That *is* the dress code.

'scuse me.

Phaye,
I thought I was bad !

Have any of you read the current dress code? I haven't read one since my kids were in school. I do know that when they were in school, the problem wasn't that the dress code was too outrageous. The problem was that it was selectively enforced. More often than not, it wasn't enforced.

I agree with you, Dean, that dressing Goth does not make one Goth. My mother told me, when I asked her advice about an issue with my kids, that we need to pick our fights. That is, some things really aren't worth the fight. As it did with your granddaughter, the phase passes for most. I think that the kids wake up one morning and suddenly realize how ridiculous they look.

Rather than looking only at the clothes, let's look at the kids' behaviors. That is a far more accurate way to determine whether or not we should be concerned.

How about the ones in thier 20's and 30's ? Late development?

Pat, thought we were talking about dress codes.

Chill out llandproud,
I started this thread and we have talked about dress and behaviors.
I asked the question because two of you have mentioned it is a phase kids go thru.
So how about the ones in thier 20's and 30's ? Late development ?

Chill out? About what? You started the thread and can certainly take it in any direction you want.

I should have added that, while I picked up on the issue of behavior, I still felt like the issue was the dress code.

I heard on the radio today coming home from Mesa they were going to out law the low slung, crack and underwear showing pants in Louisiana. I have been up since 5:AM, drove to Mesa and back so am not sure about the Louisiana part.

I have to disagree with David Vaughn. If you wish to know what the "Goth" culture and movement is all about go to a Goth web site written by a Goth practioner>www.gothicrevue.com/culture.html I don't think people should get stabbed for any reason. But.... if one chooses to challenge the status quo by in your face in the volitile world of adolesents and government schools, one should expect some flak. I think the mother of the "victim" needs some parenting counceling and a reality check if she's going to let her kids look and act like the Columbine HS killers, who were Goth adherents. As an aside and merely a point of note, I have been told the stabber was Afro American and other issues MAY have fostered the violence between the two.

Don, if, as I suspect, you know neither the mother nor the victim, you have absolutely no justification in saying that she needs parenting counseling. Pretty arrogant of you to decide that the problem is with the victim and his mother, rather than the kid who did the stabbing. I am far more concerned about a child who acts out violently than I am about the color of a child's hair or clothes.

And why put the word victim in quotes? He was not the alleged victim. He WAS the victim, stabbed by another boy.

I know the mother of the victim. No, not well, but well enough that she told me about what happened when I asked. Not once did she mention race when describing the kid who stabbed him. And, it's African American, not Afro.

Regardless of what caused the altercation to occur in the first place, the fact is that one boy stabbed another. Do you get that? Do you care that a high school boy stabbed someone? Don't you think that boy needs to be counseled on how to deal with his feelings of anger? I certainly do.

We need to hear both sides of the story. So far only the mother of the stabbed boy has really said anything.
I don't know her, but from what I read she sounds like a mother that thinks her child is the perfect child and everyone picks on him.
Maybe he needs to deal with his anger. No child is perfect. I don't think it was an unprovoked stabbing, maybe race had something to do with it.

I don't know that the entire story will ever be known.

We do know:
Fact - one boy stabbed another.
Fact - the boy who was stabbed was admitted to the hospital and had to have surgery.

Whether or not the stabbing was provoked, as you suggest, makes no difference. It does not excuse it. Period.

I'll ask the mother if the boy who stabbed her son was black, even though I think it's irrelevant. Until then, it is a rumor.

Oh, and I don't think that the mom thinks her son is perfect. She is upset, as any mother would be. Her child was hurt and she wants to find out who, what, why, where, when - just as I would, and I'm sure you would, too.

Yes, I would, but I would have never dyed or allowed my child to dye thier hair or dress so differently from everyone else. Not that they ever wanted to. Remember the 70's ? A lot of weird people and many races at Westwood High School in Mesa.
After my oldest son was out of high school and working he decided to let his hair grow long. That lasted just long enough for him to get cement in it and what a mess. Has never let his hair grow long again.
He shaved his head for senior ditch day, went to the lake and got so sunburned all the skin on his head peeled off. Not the sharpest tack in the bunch, but a fast learner.

Has anyone thought of self defense, and he may have been kept in juvenile detention for protection?

I'm with Susan on this one Pat. The kid got stabbed and that is the issue, not how he dressed. You are being "judgemental" again. You see this in black and white and Susan and I see this in gray, you say the Mother says her kid is perfect, and you say the same thing most of the time about your kids and your grand kids, always comparing the way you do things with the way other people do things, and assuming your way is the only right way. (Like "My way or the highway:) Most Mothers do think their kids are perfect and almost always defend them. The only way you would know how the Mother and the kid feels is if one of your Grand kids gets stabbed.

But from what I'm hearing, the Mother is also getting beat up because she allowed her son to dress like he did. I say leave her alone, she has enough problems without getting attacked herself.

Keeping him in juvenile protection is probably because he had a knife, used it to hurt someone and PROBABLY wanted to kill the kid or he wouldn't have stabbed him. If it was self defense the news media has a responsibility to get the facts, but this event has been put aside for horse urine and other mundane, uninteresting fluff pieces, except for the Carol Mathewson piece. Which was more than likely done so Keyworth could "scoop" someone. :)

Very well said, Dean. It goes back to what my mom said - pick your fights. In this case, it seems most likely that the victim's mother chose not to pick a fight about clothes or hair. Contrary to the old adage. clothes most definitely do not make the man. You can put a man in a fine suit (or a priest's collar) and underneath he's still a sleeze.

I won't say enough about the mom to give away who she is, but I do know her. She is a very nice lady. She works hard and loves her kids every bit as much as Pat, you, or I love ours. Right now her primary concern is, as it has been, her kids - especially her son right now.

Pat, I let my son bleach his hair - even paid for him to have it done at a salon - when he was in middle school. He was (is) a good kid and he thought it would be fun. My husband and I decided we'd let him. He kept it that way for about 6 months and was done. His change in hair color did not, in any way, change the character of the boy.

I must say that I'm tired of hearing the self-defense argument used so freely in the case of violence. I don't deny that there are times when violence inflicted upon another is sometimes in self-defense, but certainly not always. This high school boy had a knife, which in and of itself may have been innocent enough, but he chose to use it. He wanted to use it. That, Pat, is a real concern. That boy needs help. Period.

Dean,
I see this in a lot more gray than you and Susan.
I have never said my kids or grandkids were perfect, in fact I have posted some of the dumb things they have done. Go back to my last post. I am proud of my kids, not always proud of some of the things they do or have done.
I do praise and brag on them when they do something good, and still give them hell when I don't like what they are doing.
Go back to the papers and read what the mother said.
If her son was being bullied, she should have done something about it.
Had him stay on the school grounds at lunch for one thing. She is blaming the school and it didn't happen at school.
I was told she is the one who dyed his hair and set him up, if the way he looked caused the incident.
I said before I did not condone the stabbing, but I do think we should know both sides.
No parent knows for sure what thier kid is doing once they get out of sight and if they think they do, that parent needs help big time.
You try to teach them right and pray a lot, but never bet the farm they are doing what you said.
The news media cannot get the facts because the case has not been to court, and the media does not give out names of minors. It isn't a law, just something they don't do. There probably isn't a kid in high school that can't give you the names of all involved, what happened and why.

Now back to the clothes you guys are hung up on. The resource officer says, " to say hello and compliment them for thier strong sense of identity whether you agree with it or not." what a crock. Don't be a hypocrite. No kid is that stupid.

George has not been near the door since he broke the glass. Even he knows when 'mom' is ticked off.(:

Pat, when I changed my calender to Sept., I looked back at the August 2006 page and there it was!! August 29, Shepard's Glass . They fixed it on Aug. 31st, two days later. August must be a bad month for broken windows.

I like to look at the previous years and see how the year developed and compares with the current year. Sept. 27-30 Terry W. went fishing :)

We're going to have rain Sept. 3rd. Some of the other stuff I wrote makes no sense, no idea what the notes mean.

Back to the stabbing: It might sound like I think our schools are bad. I don't, I think compared to any other schools, Payson is great. But "stuff" happens, and I just don't like it swept under the rug. I know the names can't be revealed, but the incident can be told in detail, if someone would JUST DO IT!!

Also, I am intimidated by the Goth look, it looks ugly as far as I'm concerned. The way some girls dress is just as bad, and the "gangsta look is ugly.

I remember some of the styles we wore..crinoline petticoats, poodle haircuts, bobby socks. YUK!

Dean,
If you have natural curley hair the poodle haircut was great, or did you mean poodle skirt? Remember them? Just asking about the skirt as I know how our minds work. The brain thinks one thing and the fingers type something else. (:
I remember my first poodle cut. 1953 My oldest son was about 7 months old and I had really long hair. When I came out he started crying and wouldn't have anything to do with me for about 3 hours.
I also don't understand the notes I put on my calendars. Might as well not write them, but you could write Terry W. went fishing about once every week.
Shepards does windows and mirrors not arcadia doors. I had a mirror cut for the top of an old piano that got broken and it only took about 2 hrs after I took in the broken one.
Lets drive by the school some lunch hour and see if anyone is dressed proper for school, including the teachers....

I remember the poodle skirts too. And in Bisbee High, the boys (some of them that thought it looked cool) wore their pants way low, their hair in a duck tail, collar up in the back. It was called "Pachuca" or "Chuca ", and no, it wasn't the Mexican boys. Didn't John Travolta dress like that in Grease?

Your right about driving by the school and seeing how the kids and the teachers dress. Some of the running outfits give me a real giggle. (Some guys just shouldn't wear latex briefs :)

With the luck you've been having lately Pat, I'm not sure I want to get in a car with you and drive by the school :)

O.K. we can go in seperate cars, just don't stop suddenly in front of me.
When I said check out what the teachers were wearing, I was thinking when I went to school on Grandparents day with my grandkids in the valley I was absolutely amazed at how the teachers were dressed.
I dress grungy, but if I wear a white Tshirt it is white not grey or yellow and have stains, and I don't roll up the sleeves on them because they are 3 sizes to big. I am talking about the women teachers. I don't think sweat suits or shorts are proper wear for the teacher either. I did go by the schools at other times to see if it was just on grandparent's day they dressed the way I saw them. They were still dressing the same way.
Yeah, I am being judgemental ! If parents and teachers don't set an example, who will?
From the time I started school in 1941-42 school year the women teachers all wore dresses, hose, and bras. The men teachers wore white shirts and ties. Yes here in Payson.

Pat,

I believe you have touched the very heart of the problem - or at least the beginning of the problem. Since I am older than you are, I noticed this practice when it began and even commented to the principal of the school my kids were in.

When schools were doing their job by teaching and giving our children a good, well rounded education, the teachers were very professional in their dress, manner of speaking and morals. They demanded respect from the students and got it . They were in charge in the classroom and classes were orderly.

Students were expected to come to school dressed in the type of clothing they would wear to go to a job (this would be higher grades, not the elementary grades)

Then in the early 1960's , the big deal was to try to be a buddy or pal to the students and teachers began wearing sport clothes, no ties, women even began wearing pants rather than dresses and the entire campus became quite casual. Dress codes were relaxed for the students both boys and girls. By the end of the 60's discipline in the schools began to be a problem where previously it only involved a very few students.

I have watched the education system move further in the same direction ever since. If we don't care enough for our kids to draw some lines and demand respect for others, it seems pretty clear why they lack self esteem - they must be pretty sure that nobody cares what they do !

Pat, you are absolutely right. but, you and I are just old fogeys WE DON'T GET NO RESPECT to steal a line from Rodney Dangerfield.
But the truth is there - kids deserve an atmosphere of learning that is top notch and given that, they will appreciate school.

My oldest son started college at Mesa Community College in 1970
He is now 54.
He came home about the third day and was in shock. The male teacher came in to turn on a recording for the kids to listen to, that was how he taught his classes, and he had on a pair of cut off levis, a tshirt and rubber thongs.
The teacher never stayed in the classroom except to give a test. He said he didn't care if they learned or not. He was getting paid anyway and he didn't want to sit in the classroom.

Ruby, I have to disagree with you about school in the 60's. I graduated from high school in 1970 and I can assure you that teachers still were very professional and not the least bit interested in being a buddy or pal. Discipline was not a problem. The dress code wasn't relaxed until several years after I graduated.

Now, I grant you that this was in Kansas, which may have been a few years behind either coast.

llandproud,
They weren't behind. They were way ahead. Hope they stayed that way.

Dear Susan, yes I get it. I have handeled many juvenile homicides where some kids brains are all over the street because he had the wrong color handkerchief hanging out of his back pocket, or he had the wrong color shoes, or the wrong tattoo. And I'm not sorry for saying that any parent in this day and age who lets their kid really push the envelope with Goth, Hip Hop, or whatever non mainstream "ideology" and dress they wish to identify with, they should expect the potential for problems for their kid like it or not. I have also learned that some parents try to live vicariously by trying to be a cool peer friend instead of being the parent. I wish the mother well and her son. Pat, as far as the break down of school/student behavior accountability; we only have ourselve's to blame. We have let the kids dictate the rules with our tacit approval, ignorance, and frivolous law suits against schools, teachers, and rules of acceptable behavior. What should we expect....AHhhhh, but the kids need self esteem, so do your own thing.

As an addenda, have you ever in the last decades, seen so many teachers at all levels being charged with molesting or having on going intimate relationships with their minor students. Both genders! HMmmm, could they have been products of the same public educational environment.

Susan,

How lucky for you to have attended a real educational facility. Unfortunately, I lived in California (the left coast!) where educational elitism was in firm control!

I personally talked more than once with the school principal about the lack of discipline in the classrooms, the fact that teachers did not seem to require students to be respectful. I was told that this was the new method of teaching and since I was not an educator, I just wouldn't understand.

I explained to him that my child needed firm guidance and since I was the parent, I certainly did understand that. Needless to say, nothing changed and my child joined the growing list of so so students who cared little about school.

Read Don's comments again and think about it. He is right! Students need to look to the teacher as a person of authority and respect the rules of the classroom. Letting each one do his/her own thing is creating a form of anarchy in the class - and don't think for a minute that the kids aren't aware of the limits!

Ruby, you hit he nail on the head. You mentioned the "L" word. That word is not allowed in todays academia and the creeping social engineering of our youth in public education. Ergo>Anarchy
If it feels good, it's ok to do. And it's all about me life commandments and to heck with everyone else.

There are no limits.
No one, not even parents are allowed to disicpline them, but if they commit a crime it is the parents fault and they are responsible for damages, or if during school hours but not at school it is the schools fault.
Let the parents and teachers do what they need to teach the 5 R's reading, riting, rithmetic, respect, responsibilty.
Not sex education, save the whales, and if it feels good, do it.
Do not pass them to the next grade if they don't pass the tests.. It won't kill thier little egos. Forget the AIMS test. If they have done the work to get thru high school give them a diploma.
Get govt. out of our private lives. Let us raise our kids , do what we need with our private property and not have to worry about Big Brother.

As for the teachers molesting the students. Have you seen the way the girls dress and act? Why does it take them 3 yrs after the fact to report anything? No physical evidence or DNA? Does it really happen or are they getting even with the teacher for a failing grade? Who is 'molesting' all the girls that drop out of school because they are pregnant? I haven't heard any of them say it was the teacher. As for the boys, I am sure they are out bragging about thier conquests of an older woman untill someone blabs then the boy says he was molested. Yes, there may be a few isolated cases, but here I go with the dress code and the way the kids act.

Don, it sounds like your solution is go with the flow or whatever you get you deserve. Sorry, but I ain't buyin that . Perhaps fewer probation officers and stricter sentencing for violent offenders and it would be of little consequence what color your shoes were.

These kids know where the probation lines and jail time lines are drawn. They have the inner workings of the system down to a fine art. I would go so far as to say a lot of them probably know the sentencing laws better than judges or PO's.

When I went to school there was a thing we called the "board of education" and when a fight broke out the board of education had the final word. Usually three swats not three days.

Pat, I disagree that if a kid did the work give him a diploma. I say if
the kid passes the AIMS test they get a diploma if they fail the aims test but pass the general testing by the school they get a certificate of completion. If they flunk out they get nothing.

Now everyone open their hymnals to ...

Shovelhead,
I meant to say if they pass the final tests of all the subjects they were enrolled in, they should get their diploma.
The schools take up to two weeks teaching nothing except what has to be passed on the AIMS test. I think the time would be better spent studying for the classes they are enrolled in.
They keep dumbing down the AIMS test so that more non citizens can pass, so whats the point?
I have never understood the punishment of kicking someone out of school for a certain amount of days for an infraction of the rules. That just gives them a few days vacation and they laugh about it. Keep them after school, make them do extra class work, clean up the grounds, don't let them drive thier cars to school. If the parents have to come and pick them up or they have to walk home or find a ride if they live a long distance from the school, I bet they would shape up.

Go sit down by the probation office and watch the kids that come there.
They are laughing, joking some even smoking right in front of the court house. Probation to them is a joke. Make them do community service or something constructive, not just check in with a probation office once a week or however often they go.

If mom and dad had to show up at the p o's as well as little Johnny they might just spank little Johnny's bottom and little Johnny would not progress into a little Johnny D. Dillinger.
(the D stands for delinquent)

Spanking is a no no. Little Johnny would call CPS then the parent would be in jail.
If the stupid laws that are in effect now had been in effect when I was raising my kids, I am sure I would be posting all this from a cell. (:
A plastic fly swatter was not made just to swat flies.
I don't think parents even have to show up in court with thier kids now.

I had to go to traffic court a few times with my kids. One of my most embarassing moments was the day I went to court with my son and three of his cousins also had tickets. As the judge read off the names, when he got to Randall he read them, then looked at me and with a full courtroom asked, "My God Mrs Randall are all of these your kids?"

Hey Shovelhead, I absolutely agree with you. After working for and observing the Probation system in both California and Gila County AZ, INMO it's a total joke. I know that will piss off some past co-workers and especialy some judges. But it's true. That includes the adult probation systems as well. As for many of the Parents of kids on so called court supervised probation, well, all I can say is a large percentage of them are deadbeats. The kid doesn't have a chance and is usualy acting out the values he /she sees daily at home. I don't pretend to have the answers, but probation as it is currently practiced is a total waste of tax payer money and just an employment agency for the court system. The turn over in PO's is unbeliveable, talk about a revolving door. It's also a paper mill factory filled with useless reporting requirements and form filling out. Restitution is also a joke to victims. I'm not bitter, I enjoyed my time in my probation position. Most of the PO's are good people with good intentions, but the court system doesn't give them the tools and has a non-enforcement/failed rehabilitation phillosophy. Just my opinion based on my experience.

I don't know how juvenile probation works, but I can give you an example of adult probation officers in Payson. Don, Don't take this personal,
There was a man on probation from Tonto Basin, he broke that probation twice. I know because I took in the papers to show the probation officer. The first time he said, " we will write him a letter."
The second time he said, "we will look into it." Well guess what Absolutely nothing was done. In fact the man got off early from his probation. He paid the restitution he was ordered to but it was not even a third of what he should of paid. He was indicted by a grand jury on I believe 6 felonys. Some Theft. The judge finally dropped it down to destroying records and it was dropped to a misdomenor after he paid the restitution.
There is also a big problem with the Superior court judges in Gila county and county attorneys.

all that will change Pat, when we have our own criminal justice center on historic main street

When we get our new justice center, we need new judges and a new county attorney.
The trial I am talking about was here in Payson, but the judge was from Globe. The asst. county attorney that was going to prosecute quit the night before, went to work in Phx, but is back in Globe now.
The attrorney that handled it had never seen any of the evidence untill the morning of the trial. Wouldn't you think they would have delayed it?
Not if you are buddies with judges and most of the people in Globe who run the county..
This was not a jury trial.........

Pat, beleive me, I don't take it personal. Lazy Deadbeats can be found on the other side (probation/court personnel) as well.

Not lazy, not allowed to do thier job I think is a better description of what goes on in Gila county and Payson... It is who you know and who owes who a favor.