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When it comes to pranks, two things make me angry:
When kids go too far. When the authorities go too far.
Let's look at what the kids did at the high school and ask whether each one was a prank or whether it was something else.
Gluing pennies to the sidewalk?
A prank, pure and simple. The kind of thing that kids are supposed to do. Things that are in your face, funny, memorable--and basically harmless.
Letting down the tires on the buses?
Still a prank, but edging close to the line because of the time required to fix what was done. If the valve stems were taken away, then this cross the line because it is petty theft and will cost a "lot of" time and money to fix.
Painting windows with "water soluble" paint?
Depends. When kids say "water soluble," they might mean water-based paint, in other words paint that allows a soap and water cleanup OF THE BRUSHES AND OTHER MATERIALS, but does not allow simple washing off of the dried paint. If that's the case, then they have strayed across the line because soap and water cleanup of brushes is not the same as removing the paint from whatever it is on. That might require a lot of time and work, and perhaps even a bit of money.
But is any of the three pranks a criminal act?
I say no.
Should the police get involved?
Perhaps, but only to stop what's going on while it is in progress, not to charge kids with a criminal offense of any nature.
If the kids strayed too far should they have to pay for any damage that occurred?
You bet!
Should there be any other kind of punishment, for example not being allowed to participate in graduation?
Absolutely not!
Unless the pranks were not pranks, but were malicious acts, acts intended to do damage, there should be no other punishment enacted.
So when is a prank not a prank? In my humble opinion when it is either malicious or goes too far, causing damage the repair of which should be borne by the kids or their parents.
Tom I can't agree with you.This is a case of vandalism pure and simple.The ones that were srs should not be allowed to walk down the aisle for graduation.There has to be a way to make these kids grow up.they should all have to take responsibility for their actions.Apologies just don't cut it.When I was growing up, if you were with the ones that were doing the bad things you were as gulity as they were.It has always been guilt by association,even with the law.If someone robs the bank and you are driving the get-a-way car you are just as gulity as the robber. Now the parents are getting huffy,Its like this towns attitude,not in my yard, only this is parents,saying my child wouldn't do any thing like that.The thing with the plastic forks was a prank.It couldn't hold a candle to what these kids did.Having raised two boys I think I'm entitled to my opinionEven though my last name is Haught, my boys wern't raised here. Thet were raised in Lake Havasu,where things were a lot stricter.
Your long association with the School System has warped your thinking. You sound just like part of the problem!
Removing the glued pennies, paint from the windows and track, as well as replacing all the valve stems and airing the tires is a deliberate destructive type of action and is costly to clean up. It surely did cost the district overtime pay for the maintenance folks.
Don't Senior classes do a GOOD DEED project for their alma mater any more. You know, like buy a team logo banner, or present a plaque or say thank you in some way. This act seems to be pretty much a statement of disdain.
Why do kids nowdays think they can do about what ever they want and think they will not get in trouble. If the kids get by with is , and nothing is done to them, then it tell all the kids coming up through the grades that this is ok to do, now the next year they try to do better than last year and it goes on an on an on an on, then someone gets hurt now what happen. If you are able to do this then you should be able to pay up and take what coming to you, you did it to your self. And if the schools were like this when i was in school. i would hate to see what would be going on now, Parents are not being Parents now days most of then have no idea what there kids are doing or where they are. it's like no one cares anymore,, it has got way out of hand.
To me a prank is something 99% of the public would think is funny. Does not create a problem , Does not cost the taxpayers any money. Does not set a bad example.
Were they sniffing the glue before putting down the pennies?
Tom, I think sometimes you put this stuff on here just to make people mad. This one is working. (:
I agree 100% with Tom. The students should "pay", work off what they did, denying them a graduation ceremony does nothing. Don't you remember when you were 17? Did you always exercise perfect judgement, especially when others were involved and egging you on?
Consider the primary role of these young people and the other young people watching this story. We call them students. Their main job, at this point, is to learn.
Where this went off the rails was the painting and the pulling of the valve stems. Had they just let the air out of the tires, that would have been fixable in a single morning. That's what happens when Laziness meets Stupidity. Time for some learnin'.
We can't cure Stupidity, but the sure cure for laziness is hard work. So have them wash, wax and clean both sides of the glass of every bus they lowered the bridge clearance on that evening.
I believe this a case of poor judgement. The proper punishment, and one which will teach a lesson not only to those involved but to all of the young people who are witnessing this event, is to have them pay for the damage that was done, but one night of bad decision making should not deprive these students of the graduation honors they have worked to earn. All that teaches them is that they cannot trust the investments they make in our institutions.
It teaches the rest of the students do what you want. You still get the same honors as the students who behave themselves.
So it was poor judgement. Learn by your mistakes, don't get honors for them. What happens in the next 60 years when they use poor judgement because they got away with it this time? Mommie and Dadddy aren't always going to be there to tell you how cute you are and bail you out.
Where were the parents of these kids and why weren't the students at home that time of night?
I was not a perfect parent, but I was at home at night and my kids were in bed on school nights by 9:00PM when they were a Sr. in high school. Before that they were in bed by 8;00PM
Where were all you bleeding hearts last year when the little girl could not go in line because her dress was to dressy? It looked a lot better than cut off shorts.
Maybe all of us who do not think this is a prank could pull one of our own Get to graduation early, stall our cars in the driveways and lay down on the seats so there isn't room for anyone else.
I didn't say what the kids did was a prank. I said a prank was something you could pull on a friend and still be friends. Some things that are out of bounds are bikes, drinks, and money. So yes, if you let the air out of my tires we would not be friends and that would not be a prank.
You're a little confused. Driving the getaway car in a robbery is NOT guilt by association. It's participating in a robbery.
And, though I hate to say it, your ideas about how the law should work are wrong. When I was eleven I was walking through a hay field with my brother Charlie, his friend Bunny, and Bunny's lame brained nine year old brother. Bunny's brother fell behind for a minute or two. When we looked back to see where he was, he was about a hundred feet behind us, bending over. As we watched, a tiny flicker of flame suddenly turned into a six foot high, wind-whipped fire as bone dry hay ignited on a hot July day. The fire almost, but not quite, burned the town down. Fortunately, they were able to stop it just at the edge of town.
Okay, I was "with the ones that were doing the bad things." Was I guilty of anything?
Ruby,
I thought I made it clear that there was a world of difference between gluing some coins to the sidewalk and painting anything with permanent paint or letting the air out of tires. Maybe I didn't. Let me say it again, a prank is a prank only when it is neither malicious, nor goes too far.
Gluing coins to the sidewalk requires a custodian with a shovel and five minutes. Washing poster paint off a window requires a custodian with a hose and five minutes.
Anything beyond that, as I thought I made clear, is not a prank.
As for good deeds, not a bad idea, but the only thing the kids in my graduating class did was graduate and make room for the next class.
By the way, in today's milieu, if the principal failed to mention what would happen if anyone committed pranks that went too far, he wasn't doing his job.
Pat,
I agree with you.
Chris is dead right. If a prank is not "harmless," as it should be, then there should be punishment which is appropriate to the act. And his comment that what the kids did was "stupid" is right on the money. Who the %$#@! cares about whether the class of 2008 leaves its mark on the school? I'm will to bet that 95% of the class of 2008 doesn't.
So is Shovelhead. He just about defined a prank perfectly. And his comment about letting down his tires is right on the money.
My major concern about the whole thing was the fact that the police were considering whether charges should or should not be filed.
By the way, can you all imagine how dumb the kids were who glued those coins to the sidewalk? Can you hear them talking to each other?
"Oh, look. We will glue these coins to the sidewalk with superglue, and they will be there forever, and everyone will know how great the class of 2008 was. Oh joy! Oh wow! How awesome!"
Tom, There is a big difference in lame brain 9 yr olds and so called good, honor roll seniors in high school.
How do you think the 9 yr olds here in Payson view this whole thing? Boy, we have 8 years to think of something really good to do just before we graduate from high school !
It's too bad this matter can't be resolved between the parents and school officials. It's not so different from the Chapman snowman incident. Anyone remember how that ended ?
Shovelhead, There should never been anything to resolve. Period. The buses are all inside a fence. Isn't that breaking and entering?
The parents have had 17 or 18 years to have taught thier little dears how to behave. Why should they have anything to say now? What would the parents do? Turn off thier computer for the night or maybe no TV. I know, Take thier cars for 6 months after the police get thru with them If they don't have cars, don't let them ride with anyone, and don't drive them anywhere. Let them walk..
Where were they the night it all happened.? Maybe it was thier idea.
What do you want to happen, Pat? Line 'em up against the purple fence you dislike so much and execute them by firing squad? Maybe life at hard labor in Yuma prison! They are kids that made a bad choice and their parents should be held just as accountable as the kids themselves. Then maybe when you ask mommy or daddy where were their little darlins mommy or daddy can say with confidence that they were not at the school participating in childish vandalism!
Shovelhead, Go to the thread I started under education and school. Yes the parents should be held accountable, but what can be done to them? They weren't there and evidently they didn't know or care where thier kids were.
I lived in Mesa and Gilbert when my kids were in high school and there were very few times I didn't know where and what they were doing. There were a lot less people living there then, but you still needed to watch them. I said in an earlier post, school nights they were in bed at 9:00 PM and I was always at the football games on Friday night and knew they were there as I was watching them.
The few times I didn't know where they were they usually got caught later and there was hell to pay for them. They all three had car wrecks when they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Only one was thier fault but s--- happens when you don't listen to mommie. They thought I put some kind of hex on them. Yeah I was a witch when it came to my kids when they were growing up. Ask them, they will agree.
You have a choice to have kids and they are your responsibily untill they are grown. Not the schools and not the towns.
Thanks for the picture I took it to the nursing home and Rony thought it was funny. He had a really good laugh. He smiles very seldom anymore. Thanks so much.
I don't think the police should get involved at all unless the "prank" is really out of the ordinary. In other words, if it is something that just has to end up in court.
But I do think that the kids should be punished if they go too far. I think hard word, for a good long time, is the answer.
By the way, reading between the lines I notice that there is a little confusion between "walking across the stage" and actually graduating. The kids cannot by law be denied credit for their four years of work. If they have passed the requirements for graduation, they graduate. End of story.
They can be denied the purely formal "walking across the stage" and can even be denied a diploma, which is just a nice piece of paper, but they will graduate, and they must be given a transcript if they ever request one. Just thought I'd clear up that small bit of confusion.
I am not confused, if they were suspended from school how could they take thier finals to see if they passed? Seems that the classes would be incomplete, so no grade, no transcript no diploma. Right?
The police should be involved. Once again the buses are in an enclosed fenced area. BREAKING AND ENTERING! I believe the buses are owned by a private company or were and they could bring charges against the students.
I say the kids should receive communtiy service hours. about 100 of them. to be served at the bus barn and the school custodians discretion. The parents should make monetary restitution for the overtime expense and cost of repair parts.
Each school day the kiddies would report to the bus barn for pre-inspection of the busses before they left. That would require some early rising! Each evening the busses would be treated like a UPS truck. A sweep out, a wash job, and window cleaning.
On the other hand, we could send them to juvenile hall and let them get an alternative education!
All of them should get the same punishment. Not different for glueing pennies, painting or tires. They were all there and should all have to do the same thing.
Is there enough time for them to do the 100 hours before graduation? After school is over for the year they won't show up. You and I both know that. There will be some excuse the parents will back up. They have to get ready for college or vacation or they have a job.
Shovelhead, you are dead right, but my guess is you're going to keep on getting flack forever. The final decisions in the paper bear out what you say. The kids will be kept under the threat of prosecution until they do whatever they are assigned to do as punishment. And, I suppose, until they pay for the damages.
I see that the dummies didn't just glue coins to the sidewalks, by the way; they also glued some of them to doors. That might be costly.
I think it would be just plain stupid to "jackhammer" up the sidewalk, though; don't you?
And $1,600? To air up tires? Where do I apply for the job?
And Pat, for once you're wrong.
Under the law you can't punish someone for merely being "close to" a crime, which is all that the kids who did the coin gluing were as regards the letting down of the bus tires.
Anyway, how close is "close."
Suppose the kids who did the gluing had been sitting in a car a block away? Would they still be guilty? How about in MacDonalds having a burger? Or at home? How about if they were in San Francisco on a tugboat? Or in Paris climbing the Eiffel Tower. Or on the Moon eating cheese?
How close is close? See?
By your thinking you're also guilty. You were right there in Payson when it happened.
By the way, Pat, I really hate to tell you this because you are going to hate it so much, but when a kid is suspended the school is still responsible for seeing to it that he or she is provided with the means to complete work.
I can just see you exploding as you read that, but--hey--don't blame me. I not only didn't make the rules; I don't agree with them.
In my opinion, suspensions are not punishment. How is it punishment to let a kid spend ten days at home? I call that a vacation.
Suspension is just another one of those things dreamt up by someone to make it look like somebody is doing something.
In my days in school I never once saw anyone suspended. Saw a lot of them kicked out. But suspended? Uh-uh.
Tom, They didn't just let the air out. They removed the valve stems which had to be replaced. You are old enough to know what a valve stem is aren't you? (:
The repairmen didn't just walk around the buses with an air hose and fill the tires with air.
The kids met at GVP and went to the school together. That is close enough to be guilty.
I thought the police had to file charges, go to court, and the judge decide the punishment. Until that happens who assigns the punishment? How can they be held under the threat of prosecution and by who? Once they have graduated they are no longer students. How can the school have any control? If it isn't court ordered, who will enforce it?
Good old Payson, Gila County politics, and school policies.
I always thought suspension was stupid. Like you said they get a vacation and laugh about it.
My oldest son was suspended from Westwood High in Mesa and he did not get any school work to do. He got failing grades for that week.
And $1,600? To air up tires? Where do I apply for the job?
Pat's right on this one. If the kids pulled the stems that means the tire and wheel assembly has to be removed from the bus . The bead must be broken the old vavle removed. If any of the parts fell inside the tire the tire may very welll have to be removed. A new valve installed ( or tubes if they were tube type tires). Then the tire remounted, balanced, and the entire assembly installed on the bus. Then the lug nuts should be torqued.
Shop labor rates are at 80.00 or more an hour. It doesnt take long to rack up 1600.00. Especially when your technicians are on overtime!
Thanks Shovelhead for going into detail Maybe it will give some of the people that think the students are being picked on a different perspective on the damage done at the school.
Getting a little off the subject which Tom likes. I can't believe how many people there are driving that do not know how to change a flat tire. Not all women !
I think what we have here is a case of terminology. You are repeating what was reported in the paper, and I would bet a week's pay that it is incorrect.
I don't think they "removed the valve stems," as initially reported by someone and repeated many times. Who made tne original incorrect report? Police? School officials? I don't know. Obviously someone who didn't make a distinction between "valve stem" and "valve stem core."
There is no doubt in my mind that whoever that initial report used incorrect terminology, either because they just didn't know the difference or they were being sloppy in their terminology. (Not you and Shovelhead, of course. And I'm not being sarcastic.)
Okay, as to the punishment. If the county attorney holds the charges in abeyance, then the kids will have to perform whatever punishment is dealt out. It could be decided by the county or the school, most likely by the school, and it doesn't make a bit of difference where the kids may WANT to be; they WILL perform the punishment or be charged with a crime.
This is nothing new in school affairs. It's something that is done every day. It just adds teeth to school administrators' decisions.
I've seen it happen--oh-h-h--maybe a hundred or so times.
Back in Port Arthur whenever some "prank" went wrong it usually took us two to three hours of the next school day to get the culprits standing on the carpet in the Principal's office.
Simple method, too. Just go on the PA system and announce: "The first student who tells a teacher or counselor who was responsible for (whatever) gets $200 and his or her name will be permanently withheld."
The culprits and their parents are brought into the office. They are given a choice. Either we file charges, or you a) Pay the $200, and b) do (whatever punishment we decide on), and c) pay for repairs (if appropriate).
The most likely thing that happened is that the kids removed the valve stem CORES.
I mean, stop and think about it. Where would the kids get the tools to remove the valve stems? Or the time to do it? It would be a massive undertaking, one that is very unlikely. Without removing the tires, the only way to "remove" the stems would be to cut them off. If the stems had been cut off, you can bet your bottom dollar that's what would have been reported.
I'll go on record that in the time they had they could not possibly have removed the valve stems themselves.
On the other hand, with a handy dandy little valve CORE remover, even a valve stem cap with a tool top such as the ones that any kid with a bike might have, it would be a piece of cake, and could easily be done in the 1 to 2 hour time frame the kids had.
What happened, I think, is this: The kids wanted to let down the tires, but doing that by holding in the valve core piston for each wheel would take an immense amount of time. Being clever little idiots, they decided to remove the valve stem cores. That takes almost no time.
Therefore, I think we have been talking about apples and oranges because the original report is inaccurate (surprise!).
Tom, Probably none of us will ever know what really happened. Lies, misreporting, school policies, privacy and all the other crap that protects the little devils.
I have never understood why they do not put minors names out in the public. It must be so the parent won't be embarrassed. There is no law against it that I can find. May 5th you are 17 and your name won't be printed, May 6th you are 18yrs old and your name is all over every thing. Something wrong with this.
Tom Its nice to know that we have someone in this town that is so smart, and up on every thing.I agree with Pat.Those kids should all be punished.Its seems to me that is what is wrong with our society now a days. No one takes responsibilty for their actions, its always other peoples fault or some one will bail us out.Since I wasn't raised in this town and neither were my kids I can see the old Payson mentality coming out. It was just a prank so lets laugh about it and forget it. Also Tom, if your caught driving the get a way car, how come the law calls it abating and arrests you along with the robbers?If thats not guilt by association, what is?Now putting the plastic forks aroung the field that the girls softball team did was a prank. That was funny and didn't hurt anything.Lot of difference between that and what was done by the Sr class
Marylou, I don't know what era of Payson mentality you are talking about, but the kids I grew up with would not have thought of defacing school property and there was only one school bus. Everyone watched out for the other ones kids so we didn't stand much of a chance to do anything bad. Now Dan and some of them just younger than him always moved an out house at Halloween somewhere it didn't belong. That was kind of a crappy prank. (: Seems they always knew who did it and had to put it back where it came from.
Howard Childers was the deputy sheriff and he seemed to know what the kids were thinking about doing before they got it done. He would give us a talking to and send us home Then the parents dealt with it.
Please don't take this as a criticism; it's not meant that way. We keep going around and around in our discussions because you keep on making a small, but really important, mistake. Now, everyone makes mistakes. I make them all the time, but in a discussion where one person uses one definition of a word, and another one uses a different definition, nothing can get accomplished.
So look, do us all a favor, will you? Go look up "guilt by association." Then go look up "aiding and abetting."
They are legal definitions. The question here is not whether the kids did, or didn't, do anything for which they should be punished. It's whether they fit into one category or the other. But we can't decide which category they fit into if we aren't all using the same definitions of those categories.
So look, once you look up those terms and get them straight in your mind, I would love to talk about the pranks with you, but honestly, as long as you are hung up on the wrong definitions, we'll all just keep going around and around forever.
Really, they are not the same thing, so talking about them as if they were is just a waste of time.
What the two terms mean is a matter of law and usage, and your opinion, or mine, can't change that. And when they are confused with each other we keep on talking about apples and oranges.
I'd would truly love to hear your opinion on the subject of the pranks after you know what those terms mean, but in the meantime, with you mistaking one for the other, we are all just spinning our gears.
Okay?
Now don't get mad at me for telling you all this. I am doing it in the interest of having a good, meaningful discussion.
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Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on May 14, 2008 at 2:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
When it comes to pranks, two things make me angry:
When kids go too far.
When the authorities go too far.
Let's look at what the kids did at the high school and ask whether each one was a prank or whether it was something else.
Gluing pennies to the sidewalk?
A prank, pure and simple. The kind of thing that kids are supposed to do. Things that are in your face, funny, memorable--and basically harmless.
Letting down the tires on the buses?
Still a prank, but edging close to the line because of the time required to fix what was done. If the valve stems were taken away, then this cross the line because it is petty theft and will cost a "lot of" time and money to fix.
Painting windows with "water soluble" paint?
Depends. When kids say "water soluble," they might mean water-based paint, in other words paint that allows a soap and water cleanup OF THE BRUSHES AND OTHER MATERIALS, but does not allow simple washing off of the dried paint. If that's the case, then they have strayed across the line because soap and water cleanup of brushes is not the same as removing the paint from whatever it is on. That might require a lot of time and work, and perhaps even a bit of money.
But is any of the three pranks a criminal act?
I say no.
Should the police get involved?
Perhaps, but only to stop what's going on while it is in progress, not to charge kids with a criminal offense of any nature.
If the kids strayed too far should they have to pay for any damage that occurred?
You bet!
Should there be any other kind of punishment, for example not being allowed to participate in graduation?
Absolutely not!
Unless the pranks were not pranks, but were malicious acts, acts intended to do damage, there should be no other punishment enacted.
So when is a prank not a prank? In my humble opinion when it is either malicious or goes too far, causing damage the repair of which should be borne by the kids or their parents.
Posted by hot1 (marylou HAUGHT) on May 14, 2008 at 3:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom
I can't agree with you.This is a case of vandalism pure and simple.The ones that were srs should not be allowed to walk down the aisle for graduation.There has to be a way to make these kids grow up.they should all have to take responsibility for their actions.Apologies just don't cut it.When I was growing up, if you were with the ones that were doing the bad things you were as gulity as they were.It has always been guilt by association,even with the law.If someone robs the bank and you are driving the get-a-way car you are just as gulity as the robber.
Now the parents are getting huffy,Its like this towns attitude,not in my yard, only this is parents,saying my child wouldn't do any thing like that.The thing with the plastic forks was a prank.It couldn't hold a candle to what these kids did.Having raised two boys I think I'm entitled to my opinionEven though my last name is Haught, my boys wern't raised here. Thet were raised in Lake Havasu,where things were a lot stricter.
Posted by Ruby_Finney (Ruby Finney) on May 14, 2008 at 3:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom,
Your long association with the School System has warped your thinking. You sound just like part of the problem!
Removing the glued pennies, paint from the windows and track, as well as replacing all the valve stems and airing the tires is a deliberate destructive type of action and is costly to clean up. It surely did cost the district overtime pay for the maintenance folks.
Don't Senior classes do a GOOD DEED project for their alma mater any more. You know, like buy a team logo banner, or present a plaque or say thank you in some way. This act seems to be pretty much a statement of disdain.
This deed should NOT go unpunished!
Posted by hot1 (marylou HAUGHT) on May 14, 2008 at 5:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Why do kids nowdays think they can do about what ever they want and think they will not get in trouble. If the kids get by with is , and nothing is done to them, then it tell all the kids coming up through the grades that this is ok to do, now the next year they try to do better than last year and it goes on an on an on an on, then someone gets hurt now what happen. If you are able to do this then you should be able to pay up and take what coming to you, you did it to your self.
And if the schools were like this when i was in school. i would hate to see what would be going on now, Parents are not being Parents now days most of then have no idea what there kids are doing or where they are. it's like no one cares anymore,, it has got way out of hand.
steve
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 14, 2008 at 7:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
To me a prank is something 99% of the public would think is funny.
Does not create a problem ,
Does not cost the taxpayers any money.
Does not set a bad example.
Were they sniffing the glue before putting down the pennies?
Tom, I think sometimes you put this stuff on here just to make people
mad. This one is working. (:
Posted by chrisrafter (Christopher Rafter) on May 14, 2008 at 10:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree 100% with Tom. The students should "pay", work off what they did, denying them a graduation ceremony does nothing. Don't you remember when you were 17? Did you always exercise perfect judgement, especially when others were involved and egging you on?
Consider the primary role of these young people and the other young people watching this story. We call them students. Their main job, at this point, is to learn.
Where this went off the rails was the painting and the pulling of the valve stems. Had they just let the air out of the tires, that would have been fixable in a single morning. That's what happens when Laziness meets Stupidity. Time for some learnin'.
We can't cure Stupidity, but the sure cure for laziness is hard work. So have them wash, wax and clean both sides of the glass of every bus they lowered the bridge clearance on that evening.
I believe this a case of poor judgement. The proper punishment, and one which will teach a lesson not only to those involved but to all of the young people who are witnessing this event, is to have them pay for the damage that was done, but one night of bad decision making should not deprive these students of the graduation honors they have worked to earn. All that teaches them is that they cannot trust the investments they make in our institutions.
That's not what any of us want.
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 14, 2008 at 10:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It teaches the rest of the students do what you want. You still get the same honors as the students who behave themselves.
So it was poor judgement. Learn by your mistakes, don't get honors for them. What happens in the next 60 years when they use poor judgement because they got away with it this time?
Mommie and Dadddy aren't always going to be there to tell you how cute you are and bail you out.
Where were the parents of these kids and why weren't the students at home that time of night?
I was not a perfect parent, but I was at home at night and my kids were in bed on school nights by 9:00PM when they were a Sr. in high school. Before that they were in bed by 8;00PM
Where were all you bleeding hearts last year when the little girl could not go in line because her dress was to dressy? It looked a lot better than cut off shorts.
Posted by Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) on May 15, 2008 at 9:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I define a prank as a joke you could pull on a friend and still be friends.
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 15, 2008 at 10:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I'll be over to let the air out of your Harley tires, smear some paint on it and use super glue to decorate it with a few old coins.
Friends? (:
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 15, 2008 at 10:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Maybe all of us who do not think this is a prank could pull one of our own
Get to graduation early, stall our cars in the driveways and lay down on the seats so there isn't room for anyone else.
Ha ha ha !! Big Prank.
Posted by Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) on May 15, 2008 at 12:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I didn't say what the kids did was a prank. I said a prank was something you could pull on a friend and still be friends.
Some things that are out of bounds are bikes, drinks, and money. So yes, if you let the air out of my tires we would not be friends and that would not be a prank.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on May 15, 2008 at 2:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Marylou,
You're a little confused. Driving the getaway car in a robbery is NOT guilt by association. It's participating in a robbery.
And, though I hate to say it, your ideas about how the law should work are wrong. When I was eleven I was walking through a hay field with my brother Charlie, his friend Bunny, and Bunny's lame brained nine year old brother. Bunny's brother fell behind for a minute or two. When we looked back to see where he was, he was about a hundred feet behind us, bending over. As we watched, a tiny flicker of flame suddenly turned into a six foot high, wind-whipped fire as bone dry hay ignited on a hot July day. The fire almost, but not quite, burned the town down. Fortunately, they were able to stop it just at the edge of town.
Okay, I was "with the ones that were doing the bad things." Was I guilty of anything?
Ruby,
I thought I made it clear that there was a world of difference between gluing some coins to the sidewalk and painting anything with permanent paint or letting the air out of tires. Maybe I didn't. Let me say it again, a prank is a prank only when it is neither malicious, nor goes too far.
Gluing coins to the sidewalk requires a custodian with a shovel and five minutes. Washing poster paint off a window requires a custodian with a hose and five minutes.
Anything beyond that, as I thought I made clear, is not a prank.
As for good deeds, not a bad idea, but the only thing the kids in my graduating class did was graduate and make room for the next class.
By the way, in today's milieu, if the principal failed to mention what would happen if anyone committed pranks that went too far, he wasn't doing his job.
Pat,
I agree with you.
Chris is dead right. If a prank is not "harmless," as it should be, then there should be punishment which is appropriate to the act. And his comment that what the kids did was "stupid" is right on the money. Who the %$#@! cares about whether the class of 2008 leaves its mark on the school? I'm will to bet that 95% of the class of 2008 doesn't.
So is Shovelhead. He just about defined a prank perfectly. And his comment about letting down his tires is right on the money.
My major concern about the whole thing was the fact that the police were considering whether charges should or should not be filed.
By the way, can you all imagine how dumb the kids were who glued those coins to the sidewalk? Can you hear them talking to each other?
"Oh, look. We will glue these coins to the sidewalk with superglue, and they will be there forever, and everyone will know how great the class of 2008 was. Oh joy! Oh wow! How awesome!"
How stupid!!!
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 15, 2008 at 5:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom,
There is a big difference in lame brain 9 yr olds and so called good, honor roll seniors in high school.
How do you think the 9 yr olds here in Payson view this whole thing?
Boy, we have 8 years to think of something really good to do just before we graduate from high school !
Posted by Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) on May 15, 2008 at 6:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It's too bad this matter can't be resolved between the parents and school officials.
It's not so different from the Chapman snowman incident. Anyone remember how that ended ?
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 15, 2008 at 8:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Shovelhead,
There should never been anything to resolve. Period.
The buses are all inside a fence. Isn't that breaking and entering?
The parents have had 17 or 18 years to have taught thier little dears how to behave. Why should they have anything to say now? What would the parents do? Turn off thier computer for the night or maybe no TV.
I know, Take thier cars for 6 months after the police get thru with them
If they don't have cars, don't let them ride with anyone, and don't drive them anywhere. Let them walk..
Where were they the night it all happened.? Maybe it was thier idea.
Posted by Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) on May 15, 2008 at 8:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
What do you want to happen, Pat? Line 'em up against the purple fence you dislike so much and execute them by firing squad? Maybe life at hard labor in Yuma prison!
They are kids that made a bad choice and their parents should be held just as accountable as the kids themselves. Then maybe when you ask mommy or daddy where were their little darlins mommy or daddy can say with confidence that they were not at the school participating in childish vandalism!
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 15, 2008 at 10:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Shovelhead,
Go to the thread I started under education and school.
Yes the parents should be held accountable, but what can be done to them? They weren't there and evidently they didn't know or care where thier kids were.
I lived in Mesa and Gilbert when my kids were in high school and there were very few times I didn't know where and what they were doing. There were a lot less people living there then, but you still needed to watch them.
I said in an earlier post, school nights they were in bed at 9:00 PM and I was always at the football games on Friday night and knew they were there as I was watching them.
The few times I didn't know where they were they usually got caught later and there was hell to pay for them.
They all three had car wrecks when they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Only one was thier fault but s--- happens when you don't listen to mommie.
They thought I put some kind of hex on them. Yeah I was a witch when it came to my kids when they were growing up.
Ask them, they will agree.
You have a choice to have kids and they are your responsibily untill they are grown. Not the schools and not the towns.
Thanks for the picture I took it to the nursing home and Rony thought it was funny. He had a really good laugh. He smiles very seldom anymore. Thanks so much.
Posted by Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) on May 15, 2008 at 11:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You're welcome Pat. I'm glad he enjoyed it.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on May 16, 2008 at 2:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Pat,
I don't think the police should get involved at all unless the "prank" is really out of the ordinary. In other words, if it is something that just has to end up in court.
But I do think that the kids should be punished if they go too far. I think hard word, for a good long time, is the answer.
By the way, reading between the lines I notice that there is a little confusion between "walking across the stage" and actually graduating. The kids cannot by law be denied credit for their four years of work. If they have passed the requirements for graduation, they graduate. End of story.
They can be denied the purely formal "walking across the stage" and can even be denied a diploma, which is just a nice piece of paper, but they will graduate, and they must be given a transcript if they ever request one. Just thought I'd clear up that small bit of confusion.
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 16, 2008 at 3:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am not confused, if they were suspended from school how could they take thier finals to see if they passed?
Seems that the classes would be incomplete, so no grade, no transcript no diploma. Right?
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 16, 2008 at 3:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The police should be involved. Once again the buses are in an enclosed fenced area. BREAKING AND ENTERING!
I believe the buses are owned by a private company or were and they could bring charges against the students.
No, I am not giving up on this!
Posted by Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) on May 16, 2008 at 6:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Let's list our ideas for a punishment.
I say the kids should receive communtiy service hours. about 100 of them. to be served at the bus barn and the school custodians discretion. The parents should make monetary restitution for the overtime expense and cost of repair parts.
Each school day the kiddies would report to the bus barn for pre-inspection of the busses before they left. That would require some early rising! Each evening the busses would be treated like a UPS truck. A sweep out, a wash job, and window cleaning.
On the other hand, we could send them to juvenile hall and let them get an alternative education!
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 16, 2008 at 8:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
All of them should get the same punishment.
Not different for glueing pennies, painting or tires. They were all there and should all have to do the same thing.
Is there enough time for them to do the 100 hours before graduation?
After school is over for the year they won't show up. You and I both know that. There will be some excuse the parents will back up. They have to get ready for college or vacation or they have a job.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on May 17, 2008 at 10:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Shovelhead, you are dead right, but my guess is you're going to keep on getting flack forever. The final decisions in the paper bear out what you say. The kids will be kept under the threat of prosecution until they do whatever they are assigned to do as punishment. And, I suppose, until they pay for the damages.
I see that the dummies didn't just glue coins to the sidewalks, by the way; they also glued some of them to doors. That might be costly.
I think it would be just plain stupid to "jackhammer" up the sidewalk, though; don't you?
And $1,600? To air up tires? Where do I apply for the job?
And Pat, for once you're wrong.
Under the law you can't punish someone for merely being "close to" a crime, which is all that the kids who did the coin gluing were as regards the letting down of the bus tires.
Anyway, how close is "close."
Suppose the kids who did the gluing had been sitting in a car a block away? Would they still be guilty? How about in MacDonalds having a burger? Or at home? How about if they were in San Francisco on a tugboat? Or in Paris climbing the Eiffel Tower. Or on the Moon eating cheese?
How close is close? See?
By your thinking you're also guilty. You were right there in Payson when it happened.
By the way, Pat, I really hate to tell you this because you are going to hate it so much, but when a kid is suspended the school is still responsible for seeing to it that he or she is provided with the means to complete work.
I can just see you exploding as you read that, but--hey--don't blame me. I not only didn't make the rules; I don't agree with them.
In my opinion, suspensions are not punishment. How is it punishment to let a kid spend ten days at home? I call that a vacation.
Suspension is just another one of those things dreamt up by someone to make it look like somebody is doing something.
In my days in school I never once saw anyone suspended. Saw a lot of them kicked out. But suspended? Uh-uh.
Hope you are yours are doing well.
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 17, 2008 at 11:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom,
They didn't just let the air out. They removed the valve stems which had to be replaced. You are old enough to know what a valve stem is aren't you? (:
The repairmen didn't just walk around the buses with an air hose and fill the tires with air.
The kids met at GVP and went to the school together. That is close enough to be guilty.
I thought the police had to file charges, go to court, and the judge decide the punishment. Until that happens who assigns the punishment?
How can they be held under the threat of prosecution and by who?
Once they have graduated they are no longer students. How can the school have any control? If it isn't court ordered, who will enforce it?
Good old Payson, Gila County politics, and school policies.
I always thought suspension was stupid. Like you said they get a vacation and laugh about it.
My oldest son was suspended from Westwood High in Mesa and he did not get any school work to do. He got failing grades for that week.
Posted by Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) on May 18, 2008 at 9:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
And $1,600? To air up tires? Where do I apply for the job?
Pat's right on this one. If the kids pulled the stems that means the tire and wheel assembly has to be removed from the bus . The bead must be broken the old vavle removed. If any of the parts fell inside the tire the tire may very welll have to be removed. A new valve installed ( or tubes if they were tube type tires). Then the tire remounted, balanced, and the entire assembly installed on the bus. Then the lug nuts should be torqued.
Shop labor rates are at 80.00 or more an hour. It doesnt take long to rack up 1600.00. Especially when your technicians are on overtime!
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 18, 2008 at 11:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Thanks Shovelhead for going into detail
Maybe it will give some of the people that think the students are being picked on a different perspective on the damage done at the school.
Getting a little off the subject which Tom likes. I can't believe how many people there are driving that do not know how to change a flat tire.
Not all women !
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on May 18, 2008 at 3:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Pat,
I think what we have here is a case of terminology. You are repeating what was reported in the paper, and I would bet a week's pay that it is incorrect.
I don't think they "removed the valve stems," as initially reported by someone and repeated many times. Who made tne original incorrect report? Police? School officials? I don't know. Obviously someone who didn't make a distinction between "valve stem" and "valve stem core."
There is no doubt in my mind that whoever that initial report used incorrect terminology, either because they just didn't know the difference or they were being sloppy in their terminology. (Not you and Shovelhead, of course. And I'm not being sarcastic.)
Okay, as to the punishment. If the county attorney holds the charges in abeyance, then the kids will have to perform whatever punishment is dealt out. It could be decided by the county or the school, most likely by the school, and it doesn't make a bit of difference where the kids may WANT to be; they WILL perform the punishment or be charged with a crime.
This is nothing new in school affairs. It's something that is done every day. It just adds teeth to school administrators' decisions.
I've seen it happen--oh-h-h--maybe a hundred or so times.
Back in Port Arthur whenever some "prank" went wrong it usually took us two to three hours of the next school day to get the culprits standing on the carpet in the Principal's office.
Simple method, too. Just go on the PA system and announce: "The first student who tells a teacher or counselor who was responsible for (whatever) gets $200 and his or her name will be permanently withheld."
The culprits and their parents are brought into the office. They are given a choice. Either we file charges, or you a) Pay the $200, and b) do (whatever punishment we decide on), and c) pay for repairs (if appropriate).
Worked every time. No problem.
NO police and NO newspaper articles!
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on May 18, 2008 at 3:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Shovelhead,
See what you think of this line of reasoning:
The most likely thing that happened is that the kids removed the valve stem CORES.
I mean, stop and think about it. Where would the kids get the tools to remove the valve stems? Or the time to do it? It would be a massive undertaking, one that is very unlikely. Without removing the tires, the only way to "remove" the stems would be to cut them off. If the stems had been cut off, you can bet your bottom dollar that's what would have been reported.
I'll go on record that in the time they had they could not possibly have removed the valve stems themselves.
On the other hand, with a handy dandy little valve CORE remover, even a valve stem cap with a tool top such as the ones that any kid with a bike might have, it would be a piece of cake, and could easily be done in the 1 to 2 hour time frame the kids had.
What happened, I think, is this: The kids wanted to let down the tires, but doing that by holding in the valve core piston for each wheel would take an immense amount of time. Being clever little idiots, they decided to remove the valve stem cores. That takes almost no time.
Therefore, I think we have been talking about apples and oranges because the original report is inaccurate (surprise!).
What do you think?
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on May 18, 2008 at 3:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Pat,
When I take a look at what passes for an adult these days, nothing surprises me.
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 18, 2008 at 4:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom,
Probably none of us will ever know what really happened.
Lies, misreporting, school policies, privacy and all the other crap that protects the little devils.
I have never understood why they do not put minors names out in the public.
It must be so the parent won't be embarrassed. There is no law against it that I can find.
May 5th you are 17 and your name won't be printed, May 6th you are 18yrs old and your name is all over every thing. Something wrong with this.
Posted by hot1 (marylou HAUGHT) on May 19, 2008 at 12:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom
Its nice to know that we have someone in this town that is so smart, and up on every thing.I agree with Pat.Those kids should all be punished.Its seems to me that is what is wrong with our society now a days. No one takes responsibilty for their actions, its always other peoples fault or some one will bail us out.Since I wasn't raised in this town and neither were my kids I can see the old Payson mentality coming out. It was just a prank so lets laugh about it and forget it.
Also Tom, if your caught driving the get a way car, how come the law calls it abating and arrests you along with the robbers?If thats not guilt by association, what is?Now putting the plastic forks aroung the field that the girls softball team did was a prank. That was funny and didn't hurt anything.Lot of difference between that and what was done by the Sr class
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 19, 2008 at 2:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Marylou,
I don't know what era of Payson mentality you are talking about, but the kids I grew up with would not have thought of defacing school property and there was only one school bus.
Everyone watched out for the other ones kids so we didn't stand much of a chance to do anything bad.
Now Dan and some of them just younger than him always moved an out house at Halloween somewhere it didn't belong. That was kind of a crappy prank. (:
Seems they always knew who did it and had to put it back where it came from.
Howard Childers was the deputy sheriff and he seemed to know what the kids were thinking about doing before they got it done. He would give us a talking to and send us home
Then the parents dealt with it.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on May 20, 2008 at 2:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
MaryLou,
Please don't take this as a criticism; it's not meant that way. We keep going around and around in our discussions because you keep on making a small, but really important, mistake. Now, everyone makes mistakes. I make them all the time, but in a discussion where one person uses one definition of a word, and another one uses a different definition, nothing can get accomplished.
So look, do us all a favor, will you? Go look up "guilt by association." Then go look up "aiding and abetting."
They are legal definitions. The question here is not whether the kids did, or didn't, do anything for which they should be punished. It's whether they fit into one category or the other. But we can't decide which category they fit into if we aren't all using the same definitions of those categories.
So look, once you look up those terms and get them straight in your mind, I would love to talk about the pranks with you, but honestly, as long as you are hung up on the wrong definitions, we'll all just keep going around and around forever.
Really, they are not the same thing, so talking about them as if they were is just a waste of time.
What the two terms mean is a matter of law and usage, and your opinion, or mine, can't change that. And when they are confused with each other we keep on talking about apples and oranges.
I'd would truly love to hear your opinion on the subject of the pranks after you know what those terms mean, but in the meantime, with you mistaking one for the other, we are all just spinning our gears.
Okay?
Now don't get mad at me for telling you all this. I am doing it in the interest of having a good, meaningful discussion.
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