Your Roundup

Well, we called it, didn't we?

A petition is now circulating to recall the mayor of Phoenix for his wrong-headed view of the illegal situation.

Let's hope that he gets what he deserves--a healthy boot in the rear as he leaves office!

Maybe that will give the rest of our elected officials something to think about.

What do you say?

1. Will the petition get the needed signatures?

2. Will the recall succeed?

And--oh, yeah--Go, Joe, Go!

1. probably
2. probably not. Too many illegal registered voters, and too many people hiring them.

all ready been droped. in the paper

Sorry, MaryLou,

Don't know what newspaper you read, but you're wrong.

Here's the latest news for you as of 29 minutes ago (my time right now is 1:10 PM, 4 May 2008:

=============================

May 04, 2008

Recall Phil Gordon Petitions - Ready to Sign

Many have inquired how to sign the petitions to recall Phil Gordon. Here is an update on how to sign and/or volunteer to circulate petitions. Also, you must be a Phoenix resident to sign the petition, but you do not have to be a Phoenix resident to volunteer to circulate. ACU website: www.recallmayorgordon.com
News from ACU

We've obtained the recall petitions from our printer earlier this evening and they are now ready to be circulated and signed. We've posted on our website up coming locations for May 4th, May 6th and May 8th. More locations and times will be added as we get more volunteers to circulate the petitions. In addition to dedicated locations, petition circulators will also be canvassing different parts of the city and special events.

Sunday, May 4th from 1:00 pm to 4:00 pm at the Mesquite Library Branch located 4525 Paradise Village Pkwy N (at Paradise Valley Mall). Please immediately go to the meeting room located on the left as you walk in. You may either sign the petition there or volunteer to become a petition circulator.

Tuesday, May 6th from 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm at the Juniper Library Branch located at 1825 W Union Hills Dr. Please go to the meeting room. It’s located immediately past the information desk and across from the restrooms. You may either sign the petition there or volunteer to become a petition circulator.

Thursday, May 8th from 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm at the Juniper Library Branch located at 1825 W Union Hills Dr. Please go to the meeting room. It’s located immediately past the information desk and across from the restrooms. You may either sign the petition there or volunteer to become a petition circulator.

May 04, 2008

=============================

Doesn't sound like anything has been dropped, does it?

By the way, on the same subject, Janet Napolitano has just shown her true colors.

Can you believe that she had the unmitigated gall to veto a bill passed by the legislature which would have required local police departments to enforce the law regarding illegals?

Wasn't she sworn to uphold and defend the laws?

Does she understand what that means?

I understand that the legislators are going to to take the issue directly to the voters.

I am beginning to think as soon as someone is elected, all thier brains drain out. (:
Mayor Edwards kept his.

This is not going to succeed. Exactly what are you so keen on Joe for, Tom? Do you really applaud his tireless pursuit of illegal immigrants who aren't doing anything besides trying to find work?

I guess he's solved and prevented all of the other crimes in Phoenix already, right? Oh, wait, look at azcentral.com! Lots of murders, children being abused, meth labs, wife beatings, drunk drivers. So how are there deputies with the time to stake out Home Depot and Pruitts for illegals, right?

Before you dish out the "common sense" argument, yes, I agree, everyone belongs in their own country, Americans should be in America, and Mexicans should be in Mexico, but they're not, and that should be dealt with and prioritized, but this is not the answer.

They are not here just for work. Free medical care, children born as US citizens.
I applaud Joe as the Phx. police are not doing anything. Thier priority is catching hookers on Van Buren and that really makes me feel safe.
All of Maricopa county is his territory.

Sheriff Joe arresting landscapers and housekeepers makes you feel safe? What are you afraid of?

What difference does it make if children are born as US citizens?

Chris,
You must be taking Gordon's spot on here. (:

If the illegals are not removed back to thier countries, mostly Mexico, we will soon be ruled by Mexicans like Mexico, and you won't have a choice of press one on the telephone to speak english.

They are taking jobs that other people could be doing.
For every illegal taken off a job, put a person that has been draining the welfare system in that job. Fix two problems at once.
Getting medical care, costing us more for teachers to teach them english and not paying for any of it. We don't have teachers here that speak the Apache language, why not? We have an Apache reservation inside the town limits.

Have you noticed all the check cashing places here in Payson? Where do you think that money is being sent to?
Why aren't the people using them not using a regular bank with out all the big fees they pay?

What am I afraid of? Try walking or driving in the old part of Mesa between Alma School and Val Vista, 8th st and Southern. The people and signs on stores are like being in Mexico except in Mesa they are rude and overbearing.

Let them come in the legal way and I don't have a problem.

I don't know who Gordon is. Dare I ask what happened to him? :-)

"If the illegals are not removed back to thier countries, mostly Mexico, we will soon be ruled by Mexicans like Mexico, and you won't have a choice of press one on the telephone to speak english."

What is so distasteful about Spanish? It's going to happen anyway, like it or not, government aside, your friends at WalMart and Home Depot are already producing Spanish-language advertisements and TV ads. They try to hide it from you because they know you don't like it, but they can't ignore the profit potential. You probably don't watch the spanish language channels much, but check them out. More and more "US - American" companies with US flags hanging over their entrances are courting the Spanish-speaking dollar. That's called "having your cake and eating it too." Sheriff Joe is not going to stop that. The notion that government can control the language(s) spoken in a society is a fallacy. The people do, it's a social issue.

Have you ever been to or seen pictures of "Chinatown" in New York or San Francisco? Or Little Italy? Do you feel the same way about those places?

If you want to get into a discussion of the economic costs, you're going up against about 500 years of empirical evidence that says otherwise.

- Illegal immigrants, by and large, have been POSITIVE for our econony.
- Illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes and contribute into the Social Security pool with absolutely no chance of getting it back. That takes a burden off of US citizens who benefit from these taxes and entitlement pools
- Every economist I've ever met or studied under will tell you that a low-cost labor pool is BETTER for an economy, and it more than makes up for the social costs it imposes. (Medical, health and welfare, etc.)

It's become a political controversy that sells newspapers and rallies people behind candidates. It is also a soapbox for all the closet racists and xenophobes in society to thump their chests about. Its being manipulated by the more opportunistic among our political leaders, which is why Joe is out there.

I already agreed with you several posts up that illegal immigration was wrong. It's illegal, it should be prosecuted. My point is about how it's prioritized among all of the other wrongs you need enforcement to fix. As a societal ill, it is not deserving of the attention it receives.

Chris,

It troubles me that your response to me was essentially a rehash of what the illegals themselves, and those who criminally aid them are saying. Why you would adopt such a position I do not know, but I will respond to few of your remarks:

"Exactly what are you so keen on Joe for, Tom?"

I am for enforcement of the law. Are you opposed to that?

"Do you really applaud his tireless pursuit of illegal immigrants who aren't doing anything besides trying to find work?"

Not doing anything besides trying to find work? That, frankly, is nothing more than propaganda, and you know it, or should know it. Illegals are responsible for:

a. A major portion of car theft in this state.
b. A major portion of sexual assault in this state.
c. Overcrowding emergency rooms and putting hospitals out of business.
d. A large portion of the auto accidents in this state.
e. Not only just breaking the law regarding illegal crossing of the border, but also forthumbing their noses at other American laws after they get here.
f. Most of the...oh, I could go on forever, but what's the point? You knew full well when you wrote those words that they were about as totally incorrect as a statement can be.

"Oh, wait, look at azcentral.com! Lots of murders, children being abused, meth labs, wife beatings, drunk drivers. So how are there deputies with the time to stake out Home Depot and Pruitts for illegals, right?"

This argument, which illegals and their criminal advocates put forth, is pure "red herring." What is it saying is that the police should allow minor crimes to take place so that they can focus solely on major ones. Is that what you really want, Chris? When your car is the one that some illegal steals are you going to be willing to have the police ignore you because they are too busy chasing after "murders, children being abused, meth labs, wife beatings, [and] drunk drivers?" I don't think so. What you are doing is repeating nonesense, cloud-the-issue statements made by the illegals themselves, and their friends and relatives. Actaully, the issue is very clear: They have no right to be here.

"Americans should be in America, and Mexicans should be in Mexico..."

I never said one word about Mexicans, or any other nationality. I said "illegals." Under the law, anyone who is not legally in this country may not be here. I want the law enforced. I don't care who is breaking it.

"...that should be dealt with and prioritized, but this is not the answer."

Sorry, once again this is propaganda intended to cloud the issue. What Sheriff Joe is doing is exactly the answer. They are here illegally. They need to be arrested and dealt with.

Now for a small surprise: I DO disagree with Sheriff Joe and his program on one point. I do not think that illegals should merely be returned to their country. They should first serve the prison term that the law calls for.

If that were done they would think twice about coming back.

Chris,

May I ask a couple of questions?

1. Why are you supporting criminals?
2. Since you don't like the simple and obvious solution, what is your solution to:

a. Failure to pay income tax.
b. Hospitals going out of business.
c. Overloading of schools.
d. Driving without a license or insurance.
e. Taking jobs away from legal immigrants or others who have a right to be here.
f. Depressing the wage scale.
g. Massive numbers of DUI arrests.
h. Drug dealing.
i. Muggings.
j. Sexual assaults.
k. Murders.
l. Accepting wages under the table, thereby undercutting the social security program.
m. Burglary and house invasion.
n. Theft of....oh heck! Again, I'll stop right here, but if you like I'll go through the rest of the alphabet for you.

If you are going to respond, don't come back with more glittering generalities or propaganda. Be specific.

How about this? Take any ONE of the problems they create and tell us all how you would solve it.

Now! Effectively! Without sending them back where they belong!

Let's say....hm-m-m, how about the drug dealing? Come on, Chris. Weigh in on that one.

Tom,

You forgot to mention the $20 Billion each year that is sent back to Mexico rather than being spent here where it was "earned". The cost of keeping those criminals here is huge. We have another one up here who was deported from Arizona once, from California once and is now in jail charged with raping a 10 year old child. The Mexican consulate explains that this is just a CULTURAL thing and we just don't understand!

Thank You Ruby and Tom.
Now I don't have to answer Chris. You did a real good job.

Some of the illegals here in Payson are not looking for better jobs, They have money or they would not be able to drive new cars, buy restaurants, houses , bars etc.
Are the restaurants and bars drug money laundries?

It isn't just Walmart and Home Depot. Have you read on your cereal boxes, canned goods, instructions on how to micro wave a TV dinner?
Most everything we buy now has everything on it written in spanish and english. How about the American Indians, Chinese, Germans?
If you want to live in the U.S. do it legal and speak english.

I found a new one today. I purchased four small plastic food containers at Wally World. On the bottom sticker on each base it said "made in IsraeL!!"

I am not supporting criminals. I am not opposed to law enforcement. I don't claim to have a solution to every problem created by illegal immigrants (though I think a few in your list are a bit overstated).

My comments are not red herrings, you ignored a couple of details within what I said in your response, and jumped right to generalizations. You and I don't disagree on whether illegals are criminals or whether they should be here or not. I've said all of that several times now, but that doesn't mean I agree with the law enforcement practice of profiling as a solution to the problem.

I'll try to be specific.

I said they were lining up at Home Depot and Pruitts. That's where Joe goes to get them. If he were chasing someone who had committed any one of the laundry list of crimes you listed, NOBODY, including me, would have a problem with that, but they're lining up on a street. That and being in this country illegally.

Maybe another illegal is committing a crime at that very same moment, but Joe has 8 trucks arresting the ones standing on the street corner, drinking coffee. And the media is there, and a protest is going on. OK, what was this all about again?

So we prioritize this as important arrest this guy at Home Depot because he is A) a criminal, he's here illegally and B) a PRESUMPTIVE threat to public safety because he is an illiegal immigrant. (Joe does not hassle the caucasians on the same street corner, that's well documented). That B) part is racist and it's called profiling. We don't allow police officers to determine PRESUMPTIVE threats, that's for judges, but anyway Joe has him for being an illegal immigrant, so all is well.

If the level of violent crimes among illegals is as high as you exclaim, why shouldn't Joe's people be working triple overtime chasing and arresting the ones committing those acts (not necessarily the guy at Home Depot?) That would make *me* feel safer. That's what we pay Joe to do.

Yes, since you asked, if my car was stolen (wouldn't really matter by whom, would it?) and there were more serious crimes taking place at the same time, greater, immediate THREATS TO PUBLIC SAFETY, I would wait my turn. I wouldn't be happy about it, and I'd probably be pretty upset my car was stolen, and that wouldn't be a very cool scene overall, I'd probably think about moving if things were that bad.

When a public safety officer chooses to place one category of offense above others, and it looks, smells and is like political grandstanding or bounty-hunting, yes, I have a problem with that. It doesn't mean I favor illegal immigrants or want to see more of them, they are criminals, they are ILLEGAL. However, let's prioritize the threat accordingly.

Chris,
Police are to protect inside city limits.
The sheriff goes anywhere in the county.
DPS covers the state.

That being said Joe can go anywhere in Maricopa County where he thinks something illegal is being done. What is the problem with that?

Since the police are busy arresting hookers on Van Buren St. Joe is going after the illegals inside the city limits.

Don,
I have been buying peaches in plastic bottles with a Dole label.
The first ones were grown in Greece and packaged in Thailand. Then I bought some that were grown in Africa and packaged in Thailand.
The last ones were grown in USA. The ones from Greece were the best.
The mandrian oranges are raised in China and packaged in Thailand.
If you buy any canned meat, in the fine print most of it comes from South America.
Is it any wonder we don't have orchards and cattle ranches anymore?

Ariz. was known as the state of 5 Cs. Cattle, copper, citrus, cotton and
it has been so long ago I can't remember the 5th one. Maybe it was climate. (:

It is climate.

But it's a dry heat!! ;-)

Ever try Iowa in the summer. We went to Marshalltown for my grandson to race his GoKart and almost died from the humidity.

It was only 90 degrees, but 92% humidity. Everyone kept asking well aren't you from Arizona? Love this dry heat.

I noticed a couple of items missing from Tom's list of heinous things that all the illegal immigrants are responsible for. Some of these are:

Performing the actual labor to construct roads, bridges, houses, schools, hospitals, water projects,commercial ventures, power projects and many other facilities from which most residents of Arizona get some form of benefit.

I'm not disputing Tom's list but to be fair I will defend the good work and work ethic of many illegal immigrants in this state.

Nothing like a hard working criminal is there!

If they would go home, the citizens here could have those high paying jobs. Don't tell me the construction you are talking about doesn't pay good wages.
If they are such good workers why are there so many standing on the street corners every morning or selling drugs, or robbing someone?

Some of the comments about illegals which I've read on this string have convinced me that the proper way to handle this subject is to go back to square one, look at the facts, and begin again from there.

Therefore, I'll post five short but objective summaries of the different aspects of the illegal problem.

Facts often speak for themselves when you know them, so we'll look at facts, not opinion.

Here are the areas I'm going to talk about. Although you all know where I stand, namely that illegals should be shipped home without further ado, I'll do my best to address each area in an even handed and objective manner:

• Fact versus myth regarding illegals.
• The effect of illegals on the economy.
• Confusion over the term "profiling."
• The legality of what Sheriff Joe is doing.
• Solutions to the illegal problem.

Illegal myth versus illegal reality:

Illegals are often characterized as "simple people who want jobs." Sadly, this view, which forty or fifty years ago was largely true, is no longer so.

If illegals just came across the border, took menial jobs, and lived within the laws, customs, and morale codes of this nation, they would be a major problem, but they would not be the towering problem they are.

Everything regarding the myth of the illegal as just a guy who wants a job revolves around--what else?--money. And that is where the myth breaks down in today's world.

Most illegals, having broken the law to get here, continue to do so literally every day of their lives. They have to break the law in order to survive. The little that they earn doing menial jobs is not enough to support them.

Illegals exist in a dilemma which is partly of their own making, and partly that of a series of Republican congresses which skewed our economy so far in favor of business that it will take a long and concerted effort to right matters.

Illegals are part of the forces which have driven wages down to the point where the average American worker, after wages are adjusted for inflation, makes about half of what he or she made thirty years ago. As a result of that, under-the-table wages, which are even lower, are impossible to live on. Some lucky illegals have support groups, friends or relatives with whom they live, sharing the little they make, and living exemplary lives, but for most illegals the answer to survival is a life of crime.

Illegals therefore, with sadly few exceptions, constantly and routinely shoplift, engage in burglary, car theft, muggings, drug deals, identity theft and dozens of other for-profit crimes. They have to. They have to break the law just to live from day to day.

If you speak with illegals, which I have done at length, you very quickly learn that they are not disturbed by what they are doing as long at it "only" involves money. They feel that they are stealing from the rich, and they see that as fair.

The result is a permanent underclass of people who view crimes of profit as a way of life, people who justify what they are doing as "just." This attitude creeps into their children, carrying over from generation to generation, breeding gangs whose primary aim is to reap the drug profits in their "territory," and gang violence whose purpose is to enforce that territory. All this fosters amoral attitudes in children who are taught by example to ignore right and wrong while they go after whatever they want.

This then, is the reality in which illegals exist.

Monetary effect of illegals on this nation:

Effect of illegals on the economy:

The claim is sometimes seriously made that illegals take jobs that no one else wants, thereby helping actually adding to, rather than detracting from, the economy. Nothing is farther from the truth.

Picking up just one illegal and getting him or her out of the country can save as much as $300,000 dollars a year.

Not everything illegals do that affect the economy is deliberate or illegal. Some major effects are unintentional, but nevertheless devastating. Overburdening our medical system is legal, but it costs this nation billions of dollars every year. Overburdening our school systems is legal, but it produces situations where education that taxpayers want for their children and have paid for with their taxes, have to be scrapped to pay for English classes for children who (as I have seen with my own eyes) largely blow them off.

Illegals routinely steal cars and take them for joyrides. Often, the cars are stripped. If owners have no insurance, they must bear the cost of repairs. If owner have insurance, the end result is spiraling insurance costs for all of us.

Illegals routinely drive drunk or under the influence of drugs. When an accident occurs, they feel they must flee, often with resultant damage to property and injury to innocent people.

Illegals drive without licenses or insurance, sometimes colliding with people who have to bear the entire cost of the accident.

Illegals routinely commit minor identity theft just to get a few dollars. They sometimes engage in major identity theft.

Illegals routinely deal drugs just to get a few dollars.

Illegals patrol housing areas, looking for targets of opportunity such as bikes sitting on lawns, open garage doors, or houses where newspapers lie uncollected. They then steal whatever they can.

Illegals routinely break into parked cars.

Illegals hired to do a small job often get into a house, steal small items, including house or car keys, and then collect information for major burglaries, all of which they sell.

Illegals shoplift. They do it all the time. A lot of the smash and grab, and even the armed robberies, in convenience stores is the work of illegals.

Illegals are a tremendous burden on the economy of this nation, one that at this moment is helping to push us into recession.

Confusion over the term "profiling":

Altogether too people believe that profiling--any profiling--is a violation of civil rights. This view, a totally incorrect one, basically stems from two sources:

1. Anti-American groups, of which the ACLU is a prime example.
2. The media.

Contrary to mistaken but popular belief originally fostered by the ACLU, profiling is a legitimate, and in fact a necessary, tool of law enforcement, used every day by police forces around the world.

In pursuit of its goals, the ACLU has given profiling a bad name. But a very sensible thing to do when an activist group begins to attack a branch or function of the government is to take a look at the group doing the attacking before you make up your mind.

The ACLU is a leftist organization whose stated goals include undermining our system of government. It is not, as we are led to believe, dedicated to the protection of civil rights. It simply uses that activity to stir up trouble and hide its true aims.

Please do not take my word for all that. Google the ACLU and take note that it was founded by communists and socialists, and was in fact run for decades by the head of the American Socialist Party. Be sure to read the stated goals of the ACLU. And go to anti-ACLU sites for facts that the ACLU would rather you did not learn.

Profiling simply means observing the behavior of individuals who exhibit characteristics which suggest that they may be part of the class of criminals for which you are on the alert. If you are looking for middle eastern terrorists, for example, it makes good sense to use skin color, middle eastern accent, attendance at a mosque, and furtive or secretive activity to find them. Would it make any sense to look for blond hair, blue eyes, Lutherans with a Swedish accent?

To find illegal immigrants, the vast majority of whom in this state are Hispanics, it makes good sense to look among people who are dark skinned, speak with a Spanish accent, and stand on a street corner trying to get a job which pays under the table.

The media, always bone-headed stupid, have picked up the term "profiling" and promoted the view that it is something evil and un-American, a violation of civil rights, which it obviously is not. They have added fuel to the fire by adding "racial" or "ethnic" to the term, which sounds like governmental bias.

Closely observing individuals from ethnic or racial groups for possible illegal activity, when that activity is associated with those groups is not only perfectly legal, it is good police science, something media people need to learn.

The legality of what Sheriff Joe is doing:

To repeat something already said, to find illegal immigrants, the vast majority of whom in this state are Hispanics, it makes good sense to look among people who are dark skinned, speak with a Spanish accent, and stand on a street corner trying to get a job which pays under the table.

This is not racial profiling. Racial profiling occurs when a person is rousted for NO REASON OTHER THAN RACE.

If Sheriff Joe went inside Walmart and began arresting people because they were dark skinned and spoke with an accent he would be violating their civil rights.

But he's not doing that. He looks in the logical and appropriate places for people who look like, and act like, the class of criminals for whom he is legitimately searching, and he adheres strictly to the letter of the law before he arrests anyone.

Sheriff Joe's people, by the way, despite the accusations leveled at them by illegals and those who aid and abet them, do not "hassle" anyone.

Go where they are working and observe what they do. Don't accept the characterization placed on them by illegals and those who support them. Go there yourself and see what goes on.

I know people who have done that. They were downright proud of the deputies for the forbearance they demonstrated as they were screamed and yelled at while trying to do their jobs. And they applauded the respect deputies those showed for individual rights.

No one was hassled. No one was given a hard time. No one was arrested without probable cause. Everything was legal and proper, and done with care and respect.

As for the media, which over and over again repeats what illegals and their co-conspirators claim, I invite you to go to a place where the media are filming for the six o'clock news, see with your own eyes what happens, and then go home and contrast what you saw with what is reported by anchors who I sometimes suspect are not quite as slow-witted as they seem.

Conflict creates news. And falsely created conflict, allied to spurious charges of violations of civil rights, creates even more news, getting well meaning people involved on the wrong side of a critical issue.

Don't believe me. Go see for yourself.

You will very quickly make up your mind who is right, and who is wrong about how the people standing on those street corner are handled.

Solutions to the illegal problem:

Solutions have been offered to the illegal problem. They range all the way from just letting them be to hanging them.

Obviously, we can't do either of those.

What about amnesty? Doesn't work. Been tried. All that happens when you give this year's crop of illegals amnesty is that it creates a new crop for next year. In fact, not only is amnesty no help, it exacerbates the problem.

Work program. Bring illegals here, let then do the seasonal work that most people claim we need them for, and then let then go back home and return again next year if they want to.

Won't work. Ask any illegal. He doesn't want to come here legally and have to pay taxes on what he made, either here or at home. What he wants is to make money and keep it--all of it.

Fast track to citizenship for those now here, after a hiatus during which they return home, and some kind of revision to the immigration laws, presumably some way of making it easy for the folks below the border to get here compared to others.

Won't work. The illegals here will not come forward. Don't believe me. Ask them, They will not do it. And how would such a program stop other illegals from simply walking across the border and expecting the same treatment? Answer: It wouldn't.

So what are we left with? That's obvious. Round them up and send them home. Or better still, make a deal with a poor South American country to build jails and house first time illegals for three years while they consider whether they want to try it again, and second or subsequent time illegals for ten years.

End of problem. We won't even need a fence. The mere threat of time in a non-American prison will keep the vast majority of illegals where they belong. Home!

Once the illegals are out of here you can work on some kind of immigration reform if you like. I'm not sure what kind we need, but I do know of one part of the law which needs change, and that is the part which places applicants under the quota of the nation where they were born. That's as a dumb as a law can get. It means, for example, that children born in--say--Iran of English parents have to wait in line in the Iranian quota instead of the English one.

Immigrants are the life blood of this nation. Like our forebears, they come here hungry for the freedoms we enjoy and the chance to earn a good living like we do. They are one of the reasons we have continued to be a strong, vibrant nation. We need to welcome them with open arms--provided they come here legally.

Tom, Illegals do pay taxes. A lot of taxes. It's not as much of a choice as you say. You don't need to file a 1040 form to pay taxes. Many of them pay through payroll withholding, which is to say, as much as a legal worker, often more. How much? Estimates from MSNBC put it at $9 billion in Social Security alone in 2005, plus another $9 billion in income tax (Federal).

Also, the fact that they never receive refunds, Social Security, disability, medicare, and most federal government entitlements means that their taxes paid go right to the bottom line for the federal budget.

They also pay on consumption. We are taxed on both income and consumption in this state. There are also federal excise taxes on gasoline. How do illegals avoid paying these taxes?

Also, Tom, lets talk about your "Prison" suggestions., since you've brought it up twice now, I assume you're looking for feedback. I have a few questions about how that will work.

1. Who will pay for it? You're looking at a $100 billion minimum annual budget just for operating cost.
2. How will you handle children, families, the sick and elderly who will be swept up in it? Are you going imprison parents in some South American country, what will you do with their children?
3. How will you deal with the human rights issues and liabilities?
4. How will you convince some other country to let you do this (short of invading them)? They're going to want a lot of $$$ in return. That, on top of the operating and transportation costs would make this very expensive, very quickly.

So in short, you're proposing to incur all of these costs, as well as erase $428 billion of the US's $13.6 trillion GDP (that is the amount contributed to the US economy by illegals, according to MSNBC). So you will put is into a deep recession to the tune of 3.6% negative growth, plus create a federal government spending crater. Not to mention create a major human rights situation, and a possible refugee crisis.

Sounds like quite a plan.

Tom, there are some holes in your statements I'd like to address.

• Fact versus myth regarding illegals.
I don't see many facts here, just Myth and your opinion. I'm not a believer in much of what you cite as Myth here anyway.

• The effect of illegals on the economy.
You're way off here. First, 90% of your statements are not about economics, it's a rehash about crime. Yes, we heard you the first time. Do you want to consider this the way an economist would?

A low cost labor supply is good for the economy. That's simple common sense, isn't it? It drives profitability which drives growth.

If it costs you $1 to build something, and an alternate labor supply lets you build it for 20 cents, you're going to be 80 cents more profitable at whatever price you sell it at. It's not whether Illegals take jobs that no one wants, or take jobs that everyone wants, if they can do the same work for cheaper, that's better for the economy, from a purely economic standpoint. So much better in fact, that even after you weigh the social costs (the crime, medical and entitlement issues), it's still better on a net basis. Illegals contribute 3.5% to our GDP, plain and simple. If you restrict this labor supply, what you're doing is raising the production cost of everything that illegals touched.

What is going to happen, I predict is that most of the illegals will remain here, and we're going to find a way to turn them into legitimized contributors (workers) and also consumers of the goods the US produces. Why would you want to take millions of productive individuals, some skilled, some not, who want to work, contribute, and spend money, and send them away or put them in prison for 3 years? I know it's not fashionable to talk this way, but it is reality.

• Confusion over the term "profiling."
You define profiling correctly, and clearly you're OK with it. That's where we differ, fundamentally. I'm not. And will not be. I don't believe we're at that point of giving up basic rights (That of a person of any race to stand in public and not be harassed solely because their skin is a certain color.) You're dismissing generations of civil rights progress here to solve a problem that probably just started to bug you recently. Let me clarify, what bothers me most is not that illegals are targeted and profiled by police, but where it's going to take us in the future.

• The legality of what Sheriff Joe is doing.
You define profiling, Joe is doing profiling. I have been to these scenes, the Cave Creek Home Depot, the Pruitts. Prior to the recent media attention, these WERE peaceful scenes. What you describe now is what you saw on TV, NOW after they're media circuses with protesters, gawkers, police, and media crews. Previously people were drinking coffee, chatting, reading newspapers, peacefully. I've talked with both the illegals and the landscapers and contractors who use them. These were not violent crime scenes. The precise reason Joe picked them is that he knew where to go. I'll ask you this, if what you say is true and these were the scenes of violent crimes a complaint call would have been made and City police would have responded, not Sheriff deputies. So why are they there? Joe's crew went there on their own and targeted a location, time, and people of a certain race who were not doing anything illegal, other than who they were. That is your definition of profiling, and that is what happened, and is happening.

Chris,
The illegals are getting a free education and we have to pay extra for teachers to teach them english. I believe they passed a law in Calif. if an illegal graduated from high school they would be given a free college education. Wish my grandkids were so lucky.

They are getting free medical care in emergency rooms and causing many to close or else the rest of us pick up the slack on our medical insurance and if we have no insurance it comes out of our pockets.
We don't get a free pass on medical.
Right now my son owes over $100,000 dollars in Dr. and hospital bills since Dec. for his son. It will not all be paid by insurance. The bills would not be so high if not for the freebies the illegals get.
Who is going to pay what the insurance doesn't ? The Mexican govt sure as hell isn't going to !

In the 80's when we owned a trailer manufacturing plant, we were told we had to have 3 forms of ID from every employee,, black, brown, pink or purple including my ID and my three kids who worked there.
2 should have pictures and 1 had to be a social security card.
That wasn't fool proof as I had an employee that had a drivers license with picture, high school ID card with picture a perfectly good looking SS card and he was illegal. He had paid $200.oo for his SS card. When I found out about it, I told him to go to immigration and get it straightened out as that was during the time of amnesty. I never saw him again and when I sent his last check to his address it was returned.
Most illegals do not want to be citizens of the U.S.

As for them coming here for seasonal work. What is that?
Most of our fruits and vegetables are being grown in Mexico or some other country. Greece, Africa and China to name three. Our beef from S. America.

Bottom line. They are illegal and breaking the law by being here......
They are criminals and should be prosecuted.

Chris,

The facts I cited are facts, subject to verification by anyone who cares to go out and looks at facts. FYI, saying that they are not facts does not make your statement--how about that?--a fact.

As for the myth regarding illegals as people who are just trying to find work, YOU are the one who brought up that myth. I thought I would respond the myth you brought up it in a polite and factual, rather than mythical, manner.

"Where did I bring up that myth?" you ask.

I quote: "illegal immigrants who aren't doing anything besides trying to find work?"

Furthermore, the so called "facts" you offer are not facts; they are, in fact, opinion, not fact. And that's a fact.

As Pat would so succinctly put it, the fact is that you need to "learn to read." It is a fact that I never said one word about "economics." The fact is that I commented on the factual effect of illegals on the economy, an entirely different subject. And what you read in my comments were verifiable facts, a fact I am sure you already know.

Furthermore, as anyone who posts on this forum will tell you, it is a fact that when I offer an opinion I make it plain that it is an opinion unless it is patently obvious.

Re your statement that paying illegals under the table ends up being better for the economy: "So much better in fact, that even after you weigh the social costs (the crime, medical and entitlement issues), it's still better on a net basis."

Not a fact. The numbers clearly show the exact opposite. And that IS a fact.

Here's another fact: On this subject, I will waste no more time on your posts forever.

Wow!

"The facts ma'am,just the facts"
Sgt. Joe Friday

"that's a fact jack"
Bill Murray in stripes?

Tom, OK, fine. I'm getting tired of this. I'm happy to cite sources. So I call you out, I challenge you. The below is lifted word for word from your "facts" post., which you said was full of facts and nothing else.

Prove this one with numbers and I'll shut up, if you can't, with numbers, then you shut up. OK?

"Illegals are part of the forces which have driven wages down to the point where the average American worker, after wages are adjusted for inflation, makes about half of what he or she made thirty years ago. "

I have numbers and several charts from reliable sources that say this is 100% horse puckey.

Some very interesting and thought provoking discussion in this string. Good arguements on both sides of the issues.

I noticed that Mrs. Randall asked a question a couple of posts back that was sort of directed to me and has not been answered. The question was "If they are such good workers why are there so many standing on the street corners every morning or selling drugs, or robbing someone?"

The answer of why so many are standing on street corners is that they are looking for work. What a concept. I'm not sure if I have ever seen an unemployed citizen on the corner looking for work (not in 20 years anyhow). Asking for money maybe but not looking for work.I guess looking for work on a street corner is beneath most citizens but asking for money is not. Hmmm. The work ethic thing again perhaps? I have not seen any drug sales or robbery by the day laborers on the corners - just people (aka dangerous criminals)looking for work.

My point was if they were good workers they would have a job and not be standing there.

Unemployed citizens read the ads, go to DES, or an agency that has jobs listed.
Of course the people that hire the illegals don't have any jobs listed in those places.

Back in the 1970's I worked in Vermont on construction sites where unemployed men would wait around all day hoping to get hired. The unemployment in some of the small towns was over 50%. It was so sad. I can't actually suggest that unemployed people should do the same today.

Maybe those men did not want to work, but instead collect unemployment. I know people like that. Work long enough to be eligible for unemployment then take a vacation at lower pay and/or get paid under the table for a different job.
Maybe they could have worked at something besides construction.

The scheme in the 70's was to cut wood while on unemployment, keep enough to heat the house/trailer and sell the rest for cash. Probably is still going on today. There are actually way more trees in VT than there was 100 years ago. The forests have reclaimed much of the previously cleared farmland.

Back then the illegal immigrant workers that had people upset were the French Canadian sheetrockers. They went back and forth through the border checkpoints but were not legally allowed to work. The border guards just sort of winked at the tools and materials.

How come you didn't mention the unemloyment pay?

It seems you want this to be one sided. The poor illegals and people who are to damn lazy to do a different kind of work when they can't do just what they want.

Maybe the border guards were collecting a little extra pay for the winks.

I'm not following you. The laid off Citizens that collected unemployment (some were to proud to accept it) would cut wood until they could find work or move. This usually happened when there was snow on the ground and no work to be found. This was right when family farms started to die off back there. The people I was referring to earlier that hung out on construction sites hoping to be hired were all citizens. It was is area of deep poverty. Back then I think the per capita income was the second lowest right behind Mississippi.

Sure they were proud to collect it. It doesn't cost them anything.
The employer is the one that pays it all in for dead beats to collect.

You said they cut wood and sold it for cash, so that was illegal if they were collecting unemployment.

If it was in such deep poverty what were they building?

If there isn't work, MOVE.

The state was replacing wooden water mains with ductile iron pipe and the Feds were building the interstate through the Town. The northeast part of the state is still impoverished - just like here.

You may know people who are proud to collect unemployment but not everyone who collects unemployment is a deadbeat or is proud to collect it. And yes I think that there were people on unemployment selling wood for cash. The max unemployment back then was around $70 week.

By the way, the poor job market in the northeast is why I moved to Arizona 28 years ago. Best decision I ever made.

Illegal immigration on MEXICO'S SOUTHERN BORDER is dealt with by the firearms industry and the Mexican military. They don't have an illegal immigration problem. And boy, do they profile! Works for them.

I agree. Getting scarey again Don. We are agreeing.
Only drugs get across thier southern borders, then across our southern border.

Congress and the President need to assign an army division to a job of national importance.

Border patrol?

Oh, no. Something light years more important than that!

A soldier needs to be assigned to each TV station and furnished with a little wooden mallet. Each time an anchor says "profiling," without adding the phrase, "which is, of course, perfectly legal and proper," that soldier's duty will be to give said anchor a nice tap on the forehead.

It's called aversion therapy.

By that, I mean that my aversion to anchors will be somewhat decreased.

And you never know, it's possible that some very nice hollow tones might be produced. Could be the discovery of a whole new typmanic instrument.

Remember how NBC used to start up their programs?

Bing! Bong! Bung!

They created those tones back on radio during the thirties when it was cheaper to hire three guys off the street than to buy a musical instrument. Three wannabe anchors stood in a row while an NBC usher tapped heads with a little rubber hammer like the one the doctors use to check your knees.

By the way, Pat, Don, Shovelhead, what's brown and rings like a bell?

Dung!!

May God smile upon you and yours on this Mothers Day.