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The recent controversy over the K2 well has created so much ill will between Pine and Strawberry that PSWID can no longer represent the interests of our two once friendly communities.
In truth, PSWID never did represent both towns. Looking back over the record it looks like it was working to get water for Pine all right, but I don't see anything much about getting water for Strawberry in the record, do you? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Prior to PSWID, the K2 controversy, and the recent recall election, Pine and Strawberry were two small mountain communities that more or less thought and acted together.
What went wrong?
Simple. Creating one water district to represent the interests of two separate towns, when those interest happen to be in direct opposition to each other, was a really bad idea.
The people of Pine desperately need water.
The folks in Strawberry want to protect the water that lies beneath their town.
How could anyone have ever thought that two towns, with those obviously conflicting needs, could possibly be represented by one water district?
Nonsense!
From the day it was formed, PSWID was doomed to run into the exact kind of trouble it ran into. The instant that the suggestion was made that water for Pine be drawn from beneath Strawberry a battle between the two towns was inevitable.
Does it matter that it might not have harmed Strawberry? No! The folks in Strawberry have an absolute right to act and think as they like. That’s their right.
And the folks in Pine need water, and that's a fact.
But the end result is that PSWID has to go. It cannot possibly represent the opposing interests of the two towns.
It's Arizona v. Nevada over the Colorado water or Payson v. Star Valley over the Tower Well all over again.
You can't have one organization representing two separate sets of interests.
So what do we do?
It's obvious, isn't it? We dissolve PSWID, form a PWID and SWID, share the existing tax funds equitably, and go our separate ways.
Doesn't mean we can't cooperate when it is in our best interests. It just means that we have a Strawberry board representing Strawberry, and a Pine board representing Pine.
We should have done that in the first place!
I'll say it again: PSWID must go!
Just put the petition to dissolve PSWID, create a PWID and a SWID, share the existing funds equitably, and have two separate elections for new board members in front of me and I'll sign it!
Tom, The first fracture I witnessed between these two communities occurred during the discussion and presentation that took place at the Community Center when Robert Hardcastle explained the Magnolia Project to the customers for the first time. It was very obvious then as now that the divide and conquer approach was his intention. Pine Water Company customers on water restrictions and meter moratorium and Strawberry Water Company had neither.
I still have a clear memory of the reaction of the Strawberry residients regarding having ANY of their water going to assist their neighbors in Pine. It was a real good example of neighbor helping neighbor. NOT!!! The PSWID had nothing at all to do with that project or meeting, it was all a Brooke Utility show and tell. The reality was that it was mainly for show anyway since Brooke owns both companies and had already justified to and got approval from the ACC based on the proposed benefit of joining the two communities water systems.
It was at that point that I believe the stake was driven between the collective interests of both Pine and Strawberry. And as I've pointed out before, the PSWID was basically useless in trying to resolve the conflict. How could they? They have not real authority.
If all the geological studies are close to being accurate, it would be in Strawberry's interest to bury the hatchet as the water in the deep aquifer from which the Strawberry Hollow system and the Milk Ranch well are tapped into mainly lies below Pine and spreads on South of Payson. As Strawberry is fixing to learn, water hauling and restrictions are a reality until such time as all the collective water sources are brought together under one municipal agency for the benefit of both communities equally. Then perhaps we can ALL get on with our lives.
OK, I guess you are tired of hearing from me. I do have a tendency to suffer from tunnel vision. However, something has gotten into me, and I just can't hold back from responding. First, I'd like to say I am not reacting to the current PSWID Board because of sour grapes. My reaction comes out of fear. My fears are based on the following: (1) the hiring of a controversial attorney; (2) the explanation that there is no attorney conflict of interest because the same water sharing agreement will be used for all well owners (but who is writing that agreement); (3) the statement of the PSWID co-chair quoted in the Payson Roundup that she wants to save 20 million gallons of water in the area through conservation. Conservation is admirable, however, the Pine/Strawberry community already leads the conservation battle at the average usage of 140 gallons a day per household versus the national average of 350 gallons a day per household. The need is not conservation, but more water; (4) This board came in with only one goal: the purchase of the water companies. I believe that in their rush to meet this goal, they might make some rash decisions; (5) the current PSWID chairman has made statements to me that have proved to be wrong. I believe that he does not always gather the facts and carefully examine them before making statements to the public. I also believe that he might have a tendency to make decisions without all the facts; (6) how can the current PSWID Board make the statement that the district has always been a domestic water district when since its inception, it did not act as one and no one thought of it as a domestic water district?
Finally, there is some new James Bossart testimony. I suggest that you go to the Arizona Corporation Commission site, click on e-docket, ether the case# W-03512A-06-0407, click on documents and then find the James Bossart testimony.
Dissolving PSWID is a new idea. Maybe that is what has to be done. However, would the two separate entities be able to generate enough income to solve the problem?
TOM, GET A NEW COMPUTER LIKE I DID AND YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING. (:
I posted this on your other thread but you said you were thru with it so will post it on here.
Neither Pine or Strawberry is a town, They are communities with no legal standing. They need to each incorportate or incorporate together then they will have some legal standing and stop all the wild cat drilling.
I agree with you. And I too remember the time when the wedge went in. I had my doubts about it then, and still do now.
Here's my take on the two communities ever getting together again:
My experience (not a happy one!) has been that people will believe whatever they want to believe, especially if it happens to be something that might hurt them. I doubt that there is anything that will ever erase the suspicion Strawberry folks have that Pine has its eye on their water.
Why?
Well, to be honest, it's true. Not in a nasty, thieving sort of way, but just because Pine is so desperately in need of water.
So the answer is simple: Two water districts, each one looking out for the people in its own town. That's only right.
At this point in time, it's the only way to go. It ensures that each town is represented by its own people, and there's no way that that can be anything except a good thing.
Like quit fighting and go our separate ways.
As I said, when it comes time for cooperation over something that both communities want, then they can work together. Other than that, is makes no sense to have one water district representing two towns.
Project Magnolia (a name I have always hated!) was shoved down the throats of the people in Strawberry, who were already mad as hell about having their water trucked to Pine during the summer. I knew some folks up there who got almost no sleep as the trucks rolled back and forth all night, and I have no doubt that added to the anger up there.
That anger is not going to go away for a long time. Talk about rubbing it in! Not only are we taking your water, but we're keeping you awake all night while we do it. Oy!
I sincerely believe that the correct solution is to form a PWID and a SWID, divide up the current funds, and get on with things.
As for how much money will be generated, I think it will be sufficient for what water improvement districts are supposed to do, namely look for water. Doesn't take megabucks to do that.
Let's hope that by doing what should have been done in the first place Strawberry and Pine will once again become two friendly communities. I think that will happen once the thorn is pulled out of the side of Strawberry.
You've got an organization. Why don't you talk to your people and see if they think that dissolution of PSWID is a good thing? If they do, you can then call the Roundup, get some publicity for a forthcoming petition, and then go forward with it.
But look. There could be problem because of the fact that your organization was on one side of the recent, and very bitter, recall election.
If you decide to go forward with a petition to dissolve PSWID, it would be wise to form an entirely new organization and make it very plain that the petition drive has nothing whatsoever to do with past controversies.
I would invite people who were on the other side of the fight to join with you in an effort to do what is best for everyone. And I would advise everyone to forget the past and work together for the good of all.
I feel sure that the folks in Strawberry will heavy a great sigh of relief to see the end of PSWID. It has really been PWID all along from what I have seen, and I sure that the folks in Strawberry would like to see what they view as a very large millstone (Pine) removed from their necks.
And the folks in Pine will sign the petition because they will then be free to control their own future.
It's a win-win situation all around.
I'll tell you something else. I will personally breathe a great sigh of relief when I at last see all the anger, and suspicion, and recrimination, and name-calling come to an end.
Tom and Pat, I will let it go and start saving my money for the big tax bite that is sure to come.
Please remember I am not against purchasing Brooke Utilities, the people have spoken, and I agree that Brooke has not done a good job. However, I would like to see the purchase done in a manner that is in the best interests of all the taxpayers in the Pine/Strawberry area.
I don't think the present board is headed in a direction that protects those interests.
As someone said, we will have to wait to see how this plays out.
And, like I said start putting away money to meet the future tax bills.
You didn't answer the question as to whether or not you would be interested in circulating a petition to get us out of a situation which is bound to produce endless squabbling.
I'd really like to know. Someone has to do it. And now!
I say now because I'd like to forestall the hot and heavy fighting that is going to come when the Strawberry folks realize that they are going to be asked to buy a water company in Pine. God! We don't need to go through all that again.
I would start up and circulate a petition myself, but I am a 24/7 caretaker; I have to make an appointment to breathe.
That, by the way, is the reason why I never attended any of the meetings on either side of the now dead (let's hope!) issue.
I would have loved hearing both sides first hand instead of having to rely on word of mouth or tapes that sometimes didn't catch all that was being said.
Pat,
I spoke to Ray right after he drilled his well. He said the total cost was under $240,000. He started to add something, and I got the impression that he was going to amend his statement and explain that part of the $240,000 was for something else, but I'll stick with that figure for now because it certainly sounds fair to me.
That's a downright reasonable price for a well which can produce a substantial amount of water. And Ray corrected me when I said that it was only a test drilling and wasn't cased. He says that it is cased all the way down, and I certainly have no reason not to believe him. Everything he has ever told me has turned about to be the gospel truth.
Now quite obviously the mere existence of a well is not the end of the matter. There's the question of hookup and storage, and with a deep well like that there may be sand or other corrosive materials which have to be dealt with, and that's not dirt cheap, a fact you have already brought up. And there are other considerations as well.
But if we have a PWID and SWID, instead of PSWID, which is bound to be a source of never ending squabbles between our two towns, maybe we can get something going.
As far as the purchase of the water company is concerned, it will never happen while PSWID exists. The minute the people in Strawberry wake up to the fact that they are being asked to buy the water company in Pine, they will hit the roof, dig in their heels, and perhaps even clear out the board again.
And why shouldn't they? Why should they bear an increase in their taxes, or an increase in their water bills, or both, so that Pine can have a guaranteed supply of water?
Being a nice guy is fine, but that's carrying it a bit far.
So I say it again. Let's get together as two once-friendly towns, circulate a petition to separate us from each other, create a SWID and a PWID, and move on.
Can anybody tell me why that's not a good idea?
And that's a very sincere question. If I'm wrong, just tell me so.
I wish the problem was as easy as Pine vs. Strawberry. Unfortuntely, it is not. There are actually people in Strawberry who were for the K-2 Well just as there were people in Pine who were against the K-2 Well. The whole area is made up of feuding sub groups -- full timer vs. part timer, well owner vs. non-well owner, domestic water improvement district resident vs. non domestic water improvement district resident, etc.
Gila County, the developers and Brooke Utilities have taken advantage of all this infighting to benefit their interests and to the detriment of the community.
My problem happens to be with some of the realtors. When I bought my lot in Pine, I was told the water came to the lot line. I was not told that getting the water to the proposed house would be a problem. That information was given to me when I contacted a builder, and he told me about a moratorium. I have checked with many of the residents in the area, and most have told me they were never informed of the water problems in Pine. The people who bought the lot next to me also were not told about the moratorium. They went ahead and built anyway. They now haul water to their home. If my memory serves me correctly they have to make a "water run" about 6 times a month.
Another realtor told me that the reason Pine can't get a certificate for a 100 year water supply is because people have not been living in the Pine area for 100 years. The Valley can get 100 year water supply certificates because people have been living there that long.
I think my "doubting Thomas" routine with realtors is somewhat justified. So I guess I can be in another sub group realtor vs. purchaser.
I will talk to some people about your suggestion and see what they say. In the meantime, if you would like a report on PSWID Board meetings, please send your e-mail address to waterforpinestrawberry@hotmail.com. The writer of these reports does a good job of describing the meetings. You can also get copies of the PSWID agendas and meeting minutes at pswid.org.
I will try to call Pat Randall next week. She has hooked me in with the prospect of "information."
I just thought that my last post needed some clarification. I do not mean that all realtors have a reality problem -- just that there are a few that do not uphold the standards of the profession. These few are giving the profession a bad reputation. I wish that the ethical realtors would take strong disciplinary action against the few bad eggs in the profession. It is difficult to take action against a fellow professional, but the action would do much to restore confidence.
If all the issues associated with living in this area were not disclosed to you IN WRITING before you signed on the dotted line, then you should consider contacting an attorney and pursuing leagal action against the agent that managed your purchase. We moved to Pine 11 years ago and the agent who was working with us made sure we were acutely aware of the water situation up here. As is my habit, I had already researced all that via the Internet and was well informed as to the water problems existent in Pine and Strawberrty as well as Payson. The old adage "Caveat Emptor" comes to mind.
If you appreciate the time line, that was about the same time that Brooke Utilities took ownership of the 2 water franchises, so my experience has been only with that company and their representative, as opposed to whatever entity had prior ownership and the state of affairs up to that time.
Since I have lived here I have become acquainted with many of those in real estate since it is a small community and real estate is the dominant business in both communities. I know only one "professional" developer, and that would be Mark Fumusa. Since he built the Solitude Trails subdivision ha has been only been building single residences for those who have purchased vacant lots in the area, no more large developments. Ray Pugel is a Real Estate Broker but also has acquired and "developed" several pieces of property in the Pine area, but nothing that comes close to Solitude Trail gated subdivision in scope. I have no issue with either approach just as I have no problem with the already established ,undeveloped properties that remain being built out with full consideration of the current water issue. In the case of the Solitude Trails subdivision, they have their own water supply from wells owned by them and get their water via the Pine Water Company piping. They also supply Pine Water Company with a substantial amount of water to augment that company's insuficient supply.
So in my view, I do not see those in here in these two communities real estate as some evil force destined to destroy the very environment that attracted most of us to this locale in the first place. The large majority of them are our friends and neighbors and they have no wish to drastically alter the character of Pine or Strawberry either. Yes there is going to be continued growth on privately held undeveloped parcels water or no water. As you very well stated regarding those who are willing to haul water simply to locate here. Having said that, these communties are surrounded by National Forest and that is a very limiting factor as concerns the type of "development" most have in mind when they bring up that issue. The type of uncontrolled, massive development we have all seen in places we moved AWAY from. And yes, I am very familiar with Forest Service Land Swaps and that potential and am fully pre[paired to fight that battle should it arise.
I sense a lot of the "close the gate behind me" attitude in this whole debate as if those who purchased available property up here do not have the same rights that we did to realize the potential of those properties. If we can in fact bring the residents together to get a reasonably trustworthy water supply along with the infrastructure to distribute it, I STILL do not expect some to pull in their selfish horns and quit complaining about the "change" taking place around us all. That I accept strictly as one of human nature's failings.
My father inlaw Mel Randall was born in Pine in 1910. He was not the first child to be born there. His father, Walter came to Pine with his parents when he was 6 years old. Something wrong with the math.
That has to be the dumbest remark that has come out of this whole bunch of BS that has been on here.
How do they build all the subdivisions out in the desert where no one has lived if that is how they figure the 100 year supply?
I was not trying to make accusations against individuals nor did I mean to depict realtors as some evil force. I think I tried to say a few bad ones are giving the realtors a bad reputation. Please reread the one sentence where I mentioned developers. I was just trying to explain that there are many arguing factions in the area and much distrust. For every faction there are countless counter factions. Perhaps the reaction my post received best illustrates the point I was trying to make.
Pat, I agree the stuff about the 100 year water supply is pure nonsense. When the realtor told me that I almost laughed out loud. But, I didn't I just left.
The Chief is absolutely correct, as he usually is. If anyone was sold a house or a piece of property without being notified, in writing, of the fact that there is no 100 year water supply here, he or she has a case.
Also, I never said, and I don't believe, that the problem is "Pine v. Strawberry." However, a divide and conquer message was used during the K2 controversy. There are people in Strawberry who adamantly opposed the K2 and who swore that it would "never go in. That fact was used, and that attitide was fostered in other people in Strawberry. Sure, there were folks in Strawberry who didn't feel that way, but they very rapidly went from a majority to a minority during the K2 controversy.
It was widely circulated during the controversy that that water from beneath Strawberry would be used to solve the water woes in Pine. That, in and of itself, was enough to set the two towns against each other, and that attitude will literally last forever if we don't get PSWID dissolve, and do it right away!.
It's useless now to try to patch up things. The only answer is to separate. We can talk about cooperative efforts later.
Spending time watching what PSWID is doing is an exercise in futility. PSWID no longer represents the interests of either Strawberry or Pine. It can't; those interest are 180 degrees apart.
Take just one thing: The purchase of Pine Water Company. Why in the world would the people in Strawberry want to encumber themselves with that type of debt?
We need to act now. Talk to your friends. Point out the facts. Let them see for themselves that the only sane solution is to form two water improvement districts.
As to what real estate agents say, my experience is that in any group there are a few individuals who walk around with dollar signs in their eyes, sometimes giving the whole group a bad name. We have some great realtors up here, and many fine agents working for them. If you have had a problem with an agent you might just get in your car, drive to the realtor involved, and sit down with the person who has the license.
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I'm still waiting for someone to tell why creating an SWID and a PWID is not a good idea.
I suspect the silence on that question says it all.
I think incorporating would be a bad move for these two tiny communities. Not enough money to provide the services now provided by the county.
Not only that, but the very first thing that would happen would be a full scale war as the newly created community tried to get all of the current water private water supplies under its control.
I can see it all now. You cannot imagine the anger smoldering among full-time Pine residents during water hauling periods when they see people in private enclaves washing off their driveways with water that was drawn from the same water table.
Oh, man! What a fight that would be!
I've seen some bitter battles, but I would prefer to be under the soil when that one happens, which it will some day.
I hope you noticed that both my previous posts were not addressed to you specifically. I was generalizing in my overall impression of this whole debate and not just to those who post on these threads. If you took it as a personal affront, please accept my apology. The opening paragraph about not having issues fully disclosed is applicable to anyone purchasing anything, anywhere.
The denigration of "developers" and proponents of uncontrolled growth as the evil forces behind the whole water resource acquisition debate is well documented. I have yet to hear any of the detractors provide concrete proof of all their allegations regarding "uncontrolled development" occuring if both Pine and Strawberry do manage to get local control of our precious water resources. I see that whole approach as a "red herring" argument.
I have duly noted that you also are in favor of letting the residents of these 2 communities have predominant control over the water system. I do have some small background in municipal water systems as water was my stock in trade for 30 years and required me to have a fairly comprehensive understanding of those systems. I certainly have no illusions that acquisition and maintenance of such a system has significant costs associated with it. But , appreciate that every penny spent by water users under a locally controlled Municipal Water District goes into the system operation and maintenance. Some would even be available for "exploration and research". Currently a minimal amount of that revenue generated goes back into our system and a fair chunk goes to the stockholders of Jayco Oil in California. That's simply the capitalist system at work where bottom line profit is the overarching priority. I'm okay with that for most products and services, but not when it comes to such a vital necessity as water.
I appreciate that I am preaching to the chior and that you and I are probably more in agreement than might be appairent. But this is a very critical debate that is taking place. Tom , myself and untold others did not serve in the Armed Forces, protecting and defending the Constitution of the United States so that we or anyone else could stifle another citizens views or opinions. We may disagree on some issues but in all sincerety I have the absolute, utmost of respect for anyones right to freely express their thoughts.
PS: You do know that we live a stones throw one from another don't you?
Tom, Okay, I'll take the bait. The formation of 2 separate "districts" does merit some consideration. I would offer however that currently the 2 communities are in fact "linked" in their common interests even without the physical connection provided by the Magnolia pipeline.
There is a very substantial risk to the residents of Strawberry if they do try to go it alone. Currently none of the wells in the Strawberry plain are tapped into the R aquifer. The only 2 I am aware of are the Milk Ranch well and the 2 in Strawberry Hollow, both which reside in Pine. As individual lots are built out in Strawberry, there is a strong likelyhood that the existing shallow wells up there will start to diminish in their flows, requiring Strawberry to seek water fronm the deeper aquifers. The old "too many straws in the same glass" phenom.
Considering their geographical proximity to the Fossil Springs, that drilling may not be possible due to a potential impact on Fossil Springs which has untold protection and support from the environmentalists. If that proves to be the case then Strawberry could find itself dependent upon water augmentation from Pine's deep wells sent back up the Magnolia pipeline.
I think what you propose has merit but I also think the folks in Strawberry may be taking a very shortsighted view of the entire issue. Not doubt that the disagreement as it currently stands is troublesome. But with some diplomacy on the part of those who have any leadership ability at all in this issue, perhaps we can actually come together for the long term benefit of both Pine and Strawberry. As you can tell I tend toward eternal optimism. I should not!!
No I didn't know that we lived a stone's throw away from each other, but I do now. I feel that you have an advantage over me insofar as you know who I am, but I am in the dark about you. However, I think we live right around the corner from each other and since you know where I live I hope you and your wife can stop by sometime, or if you walk by or drive by while I'm out, I hope you will stop and identify yourself. I spend a lot of time out in front fighting the weed war --
I apologize for putting you at a disadvantage and you are right, as neighbors there is absolutely no excuse for my not introducing myself in the past. I will try to stop by and make a formal intro the next time I pass by and see you tending the front yard. By the way , those are some awesome daffodils you grow.
Hey! Daffodils! My favorite flower! Has been all my life.
I've tried growing them in my front yard, and had some success in the past, but they now suffer from three things: Shade from my two pines, lack of rain, and my inability to take the time to water them.
My crocuses and tulips have the same problem. I get some greenery but no flowers.
I love crocuses. There was one lone crocus, a white one, that poked its head through the snow in our front yard every year. I didn't know its name at first, but I found out what it was.
The blade of a bulldozer ended its life when they tore down the old Victorian we lived in while I was overseas. I sure wish i could have saved the poor little thing, but when people with dollars signs in their eyes come along nothing is sacred.
When we moved up here one of the first things I did was plant some crocuses. I breaks my heart that I can't find the time to take care of them. That's life, I guess. I have something more important to take care of.
I've heard that one about tapping into Fossil Creek, but it sounds like a non-issue to me. And to be perfectly honest I think it was generated by K2 opponents in their scarmble to find reasons--any reasons--to stop the K2 well from going in.
In the first place, the source of Fossil Creek is up on the Rim above 7,000 feet, far distanced from Strawberry. And it flows on the surface downhill. How in the world could a well that is 1200 or more feet underground, tapped into a completely different source of water have any effect on a creek that flows on the surface?
And then you take the land distance to the K2 well site from Fossil Creek and the whole thing becomes ridiculous.
Now I'm not close minded on the thing, but I'm still waiting for anyone to poke a whole in those comments. In truth, I've been wait for someone to poke a hole in them for many long months, ever since I responded to the idea that the K2 could have any effect on Fossil Creek.
All the opponents of the K2 could ever do was repeat the same dire "concerns" over and over again. Not one word of concrete fact did they ever come up with. My belief is that there are no such "facts."
And if I may be allowed to point out an obvious fact that was ignored, or perhaps deliberately hushed up, during all the conflict, if the fact that the K2 would go into the "R" acquifer has any effect on Fossil Creek, then the Milk Ranch well and the well in Strawberry Hollow have exactly the same effect. What about that?
As for "Project Magnolia" I personally think that in consideration of the wishes--and rights--of the people of Strawberry it's time that it be capped and forgotten. Pine needs to find its own sources of water and leave Strawberry alone.
I say that even though I live in Pine. We've been limping along and living on patches, on patches, on patches for too long. It's time we got up on our hind legs and found a viable, long-term solution for our water troubles.
Want to know what I think that solution is? Blue Ridge.
So my goal is to form a PWID and begin whatever work it takes to cooperate with Payson and its pipeline, get Blue Ridge water here, and go on with our lives. Perhaps we could learn to live like normal people.
I am so sick of hearing about water I almost hate to drink the stuff anymore!
And the other side of the coin is obvious. Let Strawberry form its own water district and control its own water. It would be about time!
I think you have to be incorporated and have a municipal water co before tapping into Blue Ridge. Seems I remember 'them' saying that at a council meeting. With all that has been going on in my family I may be mistaken about that. Someone should check into it.
Tom, If I might I'll take each point of your response and try to express my thoughts.
Fossil Springs is just that. It's source is an underground spring, not surface runoff. Even during this prolonged drought Fossil Springs flow has remained fairly consistent as it has for over 80 years. Ask any of the APS geologists that confirmed the viability of that source BEFORE APS made the investment and decision to build both the Childs and Irving power plants. Now as to the "R" aquifer being contiguious or interconnected with that Fossil Springs source, no-one to my knowledge has ever done any test to either confirm or dispute that possibility. And if there is even the remotest possibility that it does, you and I know the environmentalists will put the onus on whoever is going to drill in that vicinity to prove it one way or the other. You can bet the environmetalists aren't going to foot that cost.
I would agree that it is highly unlikely, based on geographic location that the K2 would have such and impact, but in my previous posts I was not pointing to the K2 site as the solution to Strawberry's future water needs. As we already know, even though assurances were made that there were no access or easment issues with that site, there is in fact a condemnation proceeding under way to "take" the necessary property to actually make devlopment otf that well feasable.What I was inferring was that if Strawberry elected to drill for a deeper well geographically located in Strawberry that puts it in closer physical proximity to the Fossil Springs "spring" as was done when the PSWID actually sunk an "exploratory" well some years ago the effect and results of which have never been publically confirmed or disputed. That was the well exploration Pat mentioned in several of her posts that no one ever responded about because the info was never made known. Why was that since it was our money that paid for it? Just a simple question with no acusations of ulterior motives implied.
Unless you have some better "facts" regarding the character/structure of the "R" aquifer than has been provided by all the geological/hydrological studies that have been done on it, then there is a very plausible explanation for why a well sunk in the Western regions of Strawberry would in fact impact the Fossil Springs "spring" while the Milk Ranch and Strawberry Hollow wells would not have a similar effect. The "R" aquifer is not some giant void full of water that encompasses several square miles 3K feet under us. It is in rock strata that even though contiguous, can produce well or reluctantly based on the point at which the aquifer is tapped.
I was a bit rushed before (medical problem with Lolly, which--THANK YOU LORD!--is over). So I didn't have a chance to ask you about your experience with water. Thirty years? Wow! That's impressive!
I am absolutely delighted that there is someone on the forum who actually knows what he's talking about where water is concerned. My only "experience" with geology is a handful of college course, maybe 20 or 24 hours, or something like that. That, plus my undergraduate degree, which was in chemistry, physics, and biology and helps me to understand what people are talking about at times. I also taught geology, and when you teach a subject you learn a lot more about it. But a hyrdrologist I am not.
Anyway, it's great to have someone on here who can answer a question once in a while.
If you'd care to talk about your experience we'd love to hear it. Well, I would anyway. I sometimes suspect that some folks out there don't wany anyone around who can speak with authority.
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Pat,
I was done posting for the day until the Lord smiled on me and solved Lolly's problem. I just came back on to ask the Chief about the experience he mentioned, which I think is a boon to these discussions.
Anyway, I read your post and I think you are right, though I have not seen anything in writing. Any chance you could look into that somehow and get the exact wording?
It would be a great help, and I know you are good at digging up facts.
I think the way matters stand we up here in Pine have a claim to part of Blue Ridge. That being so, the exact wording is important.
I have heard, by the way, that the term used was "water supplier," not "municipal water." If that's so, then BUI could actually receive water for Pine until we come to a final decision concerning what we want to do about our future.
I'm not crazy about BUI, but if having them here enables us to get our share of Blue Ridge water my comment is DO IT!
By the way, Pat, what do you think of the idea of a separate SWID and PWID? I think it's the only way we will ever end the squabbling and get something done, and I'm downright excited about the idea.
Hope you and yours are doing well. My prayers today, which were answered, covered you too.
Might I suggest that you subscribe to the free publication Southwest Hydrology. It is a quarterly magazine focused specifically on the water issues in the Southwest portion of the US. Although some of it is highly technical, much is understandible for the layman. It will provide you insight into just where and under what type of physical limitations the water resources in the entire region have been scientifically determined to exist. No axes to grind, or supposition or emotional rhetoric, just the science as they understand it to be at this point in time.
Now to the Magnolia Project. In his business decision process Mr. Hardcastle appairently felt that one of his options of resolving the water shortages he was faced with in his Pine Water Company franchise, was to tap into Brooke's very own Strawberry Water Company franchise and move that water via truck or pipeline to Pine. Since Brooke holds the franchise and property rights to their wells in both communties, it was a pure business decision. Even though it might be hard for people, especially in Strawberry to accept, Mr. hardcastle has as much right to that water as do they. He can use it locally or tank it up and move it wherever his company has need for it. rather than pay contunual trucking costs to move it to Pine, he put in the Magnolia pipeline which he was allowed to charge back the expense to the customers of Pine Water Company. it has been deemed by the ACC as a Pine Water Company asset, not a Strawberry Water Company asset, since the Pine water Company customers footed the bill. As I understand it that is also the case with at least 2 Brooke wells sunk in Strawberry that were paid for by Pine Water Company customers.
Now I think many of us would agree that that approach may be perfectly okay from a pure business standpoint, but also agree that it is morally repugnant. A reliable and sustained source of water has been located in Pine as you know. Similarly productive wells have yet to be drilled in Strawberry up until the K2 is in fact finally a reality. The whole crux of the debate is how do we collectively acquire and combine all these water sources to the welfare and benefit of BOTH communties. you have stated your view on 2 separate and independant Improvemnt districts and as I said that approach has merit. But why in the world would 2 communities, both with limited funds, want to build the wheel twice when together they could combine resources ($$$$) and effort to resolve the issue once and for all for BOTH communities who are literally only 1 mile apart geographically and historically linked by families and bloodlines? Redundant effort of that type is a waste as far as I see it. The connection for sharing and combining (Magnolia) is there, why not use for the purpose it was initially designed for? That is supposidly a million dollars just laying in the ground. What a waste!
Okay, lets talk CC Cragen (BlueRidge). I'll try to shed some light on my background with municipal water supply systems. I was a firefighter for 30 years. in that business wtare is our stock in tade so to speak. with that understanding we were required to take courses in municipal water supply systems. Main sizing, lateral frequency, pressure requirements, SUPPLY issues, and most other issues as pertained to what we used to fight demon fire. As a Fire engineer one is required very comprehensive training in hydraulics. That pertains mostly to the movement and supply of water under various geographical and physical contraints and limitations. When I mentioned that background to Bernice, I was referring to my appreciation for the inner workings of a municipal water supply system, not in any way tied to the science of Hydrology or Geology specifically. I certainly am not that schooled in those 2 disiplines even to the degree that you are. I do try to learn as much as I can as regards them however and tend to lean toward professionals in those fields for my information.
The water from CC Cragen looks like a "slam dunk" for Strawberry and Pine if one only looks at their relative locations geographically. I have visted one of the Phelps Dodge pump stations that is down stream from that reservoir and am reasonably familiar with the permitted rights of way that Phelps Dodge had to obtain for that project. That particular station is in the Washington Park area I believe on General Springs Creek. For Payson to access that flow they will have to provide a main line from some considerable distance East and install the pumps necessary to eventually bring the water into Payson, possibly following highway 260 if they can access an easement from ADOT. If not they will have to negotiate with the US Forest Service for rights-of-way over public land. For any of it to then be sent to Pine and Strawberry would require a main line and the necessary pumps to move the water from Payson up slope to those communities just below the Rim. If you think the aquisition costs of buying out Brooke and the other water "companies' in this area is cost prohibitive, just wait till you are presented with the costs of bringing CC Cragen water to Pine and Strawberry. And that is without even considering the Tonto National Forest right -of- ways and EIR studies that would have to be funded. And do not forget the fights that would come from the environmentalists regarding the "permanent" damage that such an undertaking would cause to the natural environment of the forest.
As I said I tend to be an optimist on some things but I'll bet we will not see CC Cragen water in our communities in our lifetime. Even with all the available USDA Rural grants and subsidies. I am not disagreeing with you that surely that source would be the "end all" for the water issue, I just think it will be cost prohibitive if based soley on the small number of people it bebefits. The old "cost/benefit" conundrum.
I am pleased to hear that your prayers were answered today and will keep you and yours in our continued paryers. I know there are those that belittle the power of prayer, but you will not hear that view from my lips. In my faith I have come to accept who is really in charge of all things and I beseach Him often as required of my earthly, humble condition. May God's loving kindness and blessings be with you and Lolly during this time of difficulty.
Tom, On the issue of your personal family challeges at this time. I apologize for not offering you my help should you need it. If you need to have someone run an errand for you or help in any way, simply let me know and I'll do whatever I can. I'm in the phone book and either me or my wife go into Payson at least once a week to assist my 87 year old mother living there. If there is anything you need, I'll try to be there for you.
Tom, To lighten things up a little. When my brother inlaw had small grandchildren he was having a problem getting them to do something he wanted, and asked them "Who is boss?" Three of them spoke at the same time and said, " God is."
To answer your question, I think Pine and Strawberry will fight forever over water until they incorporate together or apart. Look at Payson and Star Valley.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your offer of help. All I can say is thank you, thank you, thank you!
As to the other things you said about Blue Ridge water et al, I've had many of the same thoughts, but Payson seems so danged optomistic about what they are doing it may just be that some of that has spilled over into my thinking.
The data you provided about BUI, Project Magnolia, the ownership of the wells, and so on, was largely new to me and much of it is thought provoking. There's another aspect to all of that too, and that's the fact that Bob Hardcastle has yet to weigh in on all this. I suspect that when some folks around here decide to lean on BUI they may discover that they are lightweights by comparison.
As to the separation of the two communities as far as water districts are concerned, if I thought there were any real possibility of us getting together in the near future I would say stay with PSWID. But there just isn't. PSWID will be powerless to get anything done the instant it requires a consensus of the people in these two communities. I tell you, Chief, I know people up in Strawberry who have sat and listened to what is being said up there. Those folks absolutely WILL NOT cooperate in any effort to get water for Pine because of the historic problems. They'll deliberately torpedo any efforts that PSWID makes.
And if anyone thinks for one minute that thay will sit still for any effort to buy Pine Water at their expense he must be smoking funny cigarettes. The only reason they supported the candidates that won the recent recall election was to stop the K2. They are dead set against buying Pine Water Company. Imagine what those folks up there in Strawberry will do when it comes time to put out THEIR money to by a water company so that Pine can have water? Oh boy!
The folks I'm talking about were absolutely gleeful over the failure of the effort to put in the K2. They don't want to be tied to Pine in any way, and that's that! So, I'll say it again. Let them go. Let them form their own water district and do what they want. It's their right after all.
And let Pine form a PWID and finally get on with the problem of solving its water problems. If the number of meter owners is reduced by separating from Strawberry, and that means that less tax money is available, well that's not only the way it has to be, it's the only fair way of getting things done.
We're the ones who need the water. We're the ones who will have to pay for it. End of story.
What I wish is that someone from Strawberry would weigh in on this issue on this forum. I'd like everybody to hear just how angry those folks are up there.
Tom, My offer of assistance is a standing offer. Let me know if I can be of assistance. I think one of the things that has changed since all this started waaaay back in the Magnolia Pipeline debate, is that if you haven't noticed Strawberry now is on the same water restrictions and meter moratorium that Pine has been on for some time. Strawberry just this last year felt the issue of water shortage and outage. Give them a couple of years of incurring hauling charges and meter moratoriums and they may be infinately more sympathtic to Pine's problems.
Now there are a number of folks in Strawberry who have private wells and some of their reluctance to approving ANY more wells being sunk is self protection and I certainly understand that. But the legal, as opposed to moral reality is that they cannot prevent Brook or whoever has the franchise rights to their area, from utilizing that water and property anyway they deem necessary to their interests.
Am am perfectly willing to wait and give them (Strawberry residents) time to accept the reality of their new situation.
Tom, You haven't posted in over 24 hours, hope everything is o.k.
I still can't send email as Quest says it isn't their problem even tho I pay them for thier great package deal and to get out of it I have to pay penalty big time. They informed us they were not regulated by anyone. How about that? Sounds like all the water companies. (:
I think we (we being Pine and Strawberry) ought to get together, rustle up some torches, pitchforks, hay rakes, and what not, attack the folks in Portals and Strawberry Hollow and chase them out into the swamp where the quicksand can swallow them up until the sequel, at which time they will return and prey on lonely women walking across the moors at night.
Won't get us any water, but it'll make a hell of a great pair of movies.
Anybody know where the swamp is?
No, chief, I haven't been drinking. I'm just beginning to suspect that we may be stuck with waiting.
Also, I just finished writing a Your Turn column on intuition and superstition, which brought back some memories and put me in a rather mellow mood.
You know what my problem is?
When I see a problem I go looking for a logical, workable solution. And being an eternal optomist I always make the same mistake: I think that finding a solution might actually get something done.
Back when I was in the Air Force, and happened to be in charge of something now and then, things actually worked that way.
That created a bad habit.
Gotta get rid of it!
PS: I agree with what you had to say. And thanks again for the offer.
I only hope that the tyros now running PSWID don't fritter away the little money we have on frivolities like trips, or total disasters like litigation with BUI.
Well, I'm posting again. Chief, one of the things that has been mentioned along with the purchase of the water companies and upgrading of infrastructure is the installation of fire hydrants. Can you tell us what kind of water pressure, the size of pipes and any other requirements needed for fire hydrants. Then, I guess my next question is, does the current system have what is necessary to support fire hydrants and then, how much would it cost to bring the system up to the standard needed for fire hydrants?
I have not ignored Tom's suggestion about dissolving PSWID. I am not enthusiastic about this suggestion because I feel the two communities really do have to work together to solve the problem. I don't think either community can afford todo it alone. However,I have looked at Arizona Revised Statutes for enlightenment about how to go about dissolving. The statutes were not very helpful in that they said that PSWID could be dissolved by the County Board of Supervisors. Gave no hint as to how to get the supervisors to act.
I agree that the CCCragin pipeline would be terribily expensive. I suggest that you talk to Buzz Walker at Payson Municipal Water to get some exact figures.
Do you know that Pine/Strawberry water supplier has rights to Colorado River water. It is not being brought to the area because the cost of getting it here is very high.
Pat, I will call you asap. I have not been in Pine for some time. I am up here now and have just about caught up.
I am surprised that anyone in either community didn't realize that when they were voting for the four candidates(Calderon, Greer, Schliezer and Dickinson) they were voting to purchase the water companies. Mike Greer made it quite clear in more than one Rim Country Water meeting that he was going to pursue the water companies purchase if he was elected.
Additional comments as to why everyone should have known that "Calderon, Dickinson, Greer and Schliezer's" main goal was the purchase of the water company -- A barbeque was held in support of the four candidates. At this barbeque it was announced that the four had been given a letter of "intent to serve" from Ray Pugel. I do not know all of the details of what happened at the barbeque, however, I do know that their was an "intent to serve" letter given to them as Ron Calderon told a group just that at the last PSWID meeting of the former board. I was a member of that group, so I had it directly from the "horse's mouth."
Furthermore, at later meetings of Rim Country Water, Fred Krafczyk started to "hint" that the Arizona Corporation Commission was really not acting in the best interests of the community. John Gliege also said something to the effect that although you were getting attention now that the ACC is really too busy with other matters to give us much attention. These "attacks" on the ACC were meant to undermine the argument that with a privately owned water company, the public at least had a chance to bring the ACC into a dispute with the water provider and provide some protection against exorbitant water rate increases.
What the public didn't know when they voted for the four candidates was that they would propose to spent plus or minus $50,000 to conserve water that we don't have; another $33,000 to hire a manager to manage a water company that we are several years off from owning; another $1,000 for travel expenses; a $1,000 a month retainer fee for an attorney and etc. The $1,000 a month retainer fee is laughable since that only covers 5 hours of work each month. After 5 hours, the taxpayers are paying Mr. Gliege $300 an hour. I might point out that the last time Mr. Gliege was involved in a PSWID matter (when the PSWID was under the control of the county board of supervisors) he cost the taxpayers about $80,000.
In other words -- we will buy the water companies, but hold on to your pocket book taxpayers as they find all these other things to spend money on.
Bernice, After reading the Colorado River part of ARS did you go to title 11-806.01 F and title 9.463. 01 J K L M N ?
Seems as tho most subdivisions in Pine, Strawberry and Payson do not qualifiy under the adequate 100 yr supply of water. I wonder how many developers and RE agents handed out the reports from the Dept of Water Resourse saying there was not an adequate supply of water?
Seems when they had the election they would have elected a full time resident of the area instead of someone that lives in Mesa.
Bernice, I see you are going to make me shake loos esome of the cobwebs that have taken over my brain. Appreciate that it has been over 10 years since I retired from the Fire Service and I'm sure some things have changed, as is par for the course. I had a sign on my desk when I managed the North Net Fire Training Center in Anaheim, it read' Expect Change!!" Appreciate that most municipalities make every attempt to comply with a standard set by the ISO (InsuranceServicesOrganization) which actually does a very comprehensive grading of a city as relates to it's (city) ability to manage major fire disasters. A city's grade extrapolates into the insurance rates the citizens are charged. Not much of an impact on private individuals but a significant savings to the business community. The best grade would be Class 1. The formula for all this is very complex but one aspect is the water supply system. The number of fire hydrants, their frequencie as relates to distance from structures, the size of water main they are attached to, and the average "fire flow" of each hydrant, the hydrants condition and maintenance, etc. Now some of the specifics I will mention are related to my experience during my career of 30 years. Some aspects may very well have changed (probably) and new materials or technology may have changed some of the equations. The preferred ISO standard for water main sizes was an idealistic minimum of 10". If the main sizes were 8" or 6" there was a corresponding reduction in the scores for that situation. If the hydrants were too few or not spaced adequately then there was a cost for that. The actual "fire flow" and pressure readings are done on individual hydrants and also with adjacent fire hydrants flowing to ascertain a residual pressure. Don't want to get too technical so let me cut to the chase.
There is a cost/benefit to this ISO business that most cities are always confronted with. Is the cost of upgrading a deficient water system, an inadequate Fire Department (staffing, training, efficient equipment,etc), and the "general" condition of the structures within the city worth the insurance savings cost to the business community. It's a real numbers crunching type of exercise. Some choose to make the investment and are rated a Class 1, others "skin the cat" and take a lesser rating and correspondingly higher insurance costs. That's a political decision.
As to the Pine/Strawberry area I would say there is little chance that any of this would even matter. My reasoning is that neither is an incorporated city plus they are situated in the forest interface. One simply could not afford the costs associated with what I mentioned above.
For these 2 communities to install what would be rated as an adequate fire hydrant system would definately be cost prohibitive. That does not mean that there are not things that can be done to provide at least some fire fighting capability as far as a hydrant system is concerned. Any experienced person in the firefightings business will tell you that a fire hydrant sitting on an undersized main with an inadequate water supply and pressure is practically worthless. In some cases it may be better than no hydrants at all, but certainly falls far short in meeting the needs for which they are designed. Most rural departments supplant that shortcoming by having water tenders (tanker trucks) that can draw water from a pond or lake and deliver it to the fire pumpers at the emergency. Between the sorrowful fire hydrant and the water tender the outcome is not always as favorable as it would be elsewhere. The time required to do this ( moving water via truck) is why rural firefighting is such a challenge as compaired to an average sized city. And to be even more direct, even if there was an adequate fire hydrant system in place with a fire department capable of maximizing it for structural protection, should our worst case scenario (a major forest crown fire wind driven), it will be only mariginally effective. For individual house fires and some small vegitation fires, it would be better than nothing all things being equal ie. response time of the fire department, their skill level, their equipment capabilitites, etc.
As when we spoke, I have often tried to share with folks who make the transition from a city into rural communities that the infrastructure here is far, far different than where they came from. Things that many simply took for granted in the city simply are marginally adequate in rural areas. Police protection, fire protection, sanitation systems, streets and roads, and of course water systems. I knew well what the risks were in moving into this type of environment from a fire standpoint, and I did my homework as regards the water situation. My wife and I still made the conscious decision to settle here.
Many people do not have a full appreciation for the differences and risks. Say a forest fires is coming this way, many feel that it will be their house that the fire engine is parked in front of with a bunch of firefighters standing by to save the home. NOT!! Even the big city departments have to do a "triage" if they have a forest or wildland interface in their jurisdiction. I have driven most of these 2 communities and I will tell you that most homes are "losers". I especially would not live in those homes situated at the tops of the ridgelines above deep brushy ravines ala Portals. In the fire service we call those areas chimneys, and for a good reason.
Sorry for being so wordy and I admit I probably did not answer all your questions. I hope I did shed some light on the major undertaking and costs associated with putting in place a "rated" fire hydrant system in either one of these two communities. Once again, some of the downside of living in rural America.
Here's a story to add a little levity to all this:
When I moved here I noticed that a fire hydrant stood more or less on the line between my newly purchased property and the one south of it.
That being the case, I checked off the block for having a "Fire hydrant within one hundred feet of property line" and got a reduction in my house insurance.
When I happened to mention it to my 84 year old neighbor he laughed so hard I thought he was going to laugh himself right into the grave.
The hydrant is real. It's not hooked up, of course.
Just proves what the Chief said. It never occurred to me that having a fire hydrant was anything unusual. Us New York City folks kids sorta take them things for granted.
Having read what you had to say about how the board members are wasting our tax money, and also having read the reports sent out by e-mail, I think the waste is reason enough to dissolve PSWID!
There isn't much of it to waste! We need it for the real job, and that is, of course, finding some way of ending our water problems.
And, Bernice, though I respect your feelings about the need for our two communities to work together, the reality is clear: It is not going to happen.
How do you think RCW managed to stop the drilling of the K2, the first viable solution to our water problems ever offered by anyone? They simply used the old "divide and conquer" method, setting Strawberry aginst Pine. It worked, and it worked well, but the aftermath is a situation where the two towns will not work together.
Why should they? Their interests are diametrically opposed. Now that the genie is out of the bottle, Bernice, no one is going to get it back in again. Not even the RCW folks, who let it out as a part of their well oiled campaign.
You don't have to worry about PSWID actually ever buying Pine Water Company. The voters in Strawberry will quickly realize that a property tax increase, or water rate increase, or possibly both, will hit them solely for the purpose of solving the water woes in Pine.
You think they dug in their heels on the K2?
Watch what happens when we try to get them to buy Pine Water Company!!
No, the only way that ANY solution to the water problems in Pine is every going to happen is to cut the water district in two and let each town do what it wants to do.
Otherwise, from what you are saying about PSWID, all I can see in the future is:
1) BUI forever.
2) Water hauling charges--as the British put it--do. (eg: ditto).
3) The draining of the tax money that could have been used for the K2--or any other well--on frivololities.
Here's a note that I hope someone gets to Ray since I can't get out of the house to talk to him personally:
Ray,
I have, as you know, always been in favor of your separating your proposed development from Pine Water Company. Along with that, as I mentioned to you personally, I would like to see the well that you and Robert drilled used to supplement the water supply in Pine (although I preferred the K2 as a simpler solution, and made no secret of my preference).
You are an infuencial person in town. So are Robert and Cindy. For your own good, and that of the town, you need to use that influence to get things moving.
I'd like to suggest to you, Robert, Cindy, et all, that the current direction the PSWID board is taking is unlikely to produce any kind of solution for the water problems in Pine. I believe (because of what is being reported as happening at board meetings) that funda are being drained off which will be needed for the fight with BUI.
For example, though I recognize the obvious need for legal advice, we do not yet need that advice. Retaining a lawyer is a waste of money at this point in time. And finding funds to replace that money is not going to be easy.
Furthermore, any move by PSWID to buy out BUI is going to be met with immense resistance by the folks in Strawberry. In effect, in trying to keep the K2 from going through, RCW inadvertently created a "monster," one that will now have to be dealt with.
That "monster" is the implacable resistance of the folks in Strawberry to the purchase of Pine Water Company. RCW did what the Japanese did in WWII. It "awakened a sleeping giant and filled it with terrible resolve."
I ask you, Ray, please think over what I am saying here.
All your prior efforts, and those of many others, are going to go down the drain unless you, and others who influence what goes on in Pine, put the weight of your opinion behind the separation of PSWID into SWID and PWID.
RCW, which I opposed because I wanted to see the K2 go in, had as its goal the purchase of Pine Water Company. But unless something is done--and done now!--to stop wasteful spending by PSWID and to cut it into two separate water disricts, all that effort will come to nothing.
BUI will come out on top by retaining Pine Water Company, water hauling charges will continue (and will get much higher if BUI loses its current source--its wells in Star Valley), construction of new homes in Pine will virtually end, and sales of existing homes will plummet.
You may wonder why I am so interested in the purchase of the water company, but if you will go back and read my posts on this blog you will see that my position was that we should support whichever side won the battle over the K2. True to my word, I am doing that.
Tom, one minor correction: RCW's goal has been accomplished. It was to remove what we thought to be corruption on the PSWID. Having removed those successfully, RCW has no further purpose than to support (or not support) the decisions that PSWID makes.
I feel that you can be confident that your open letter to Mr. Pugel reached him.
Let's stop the talk of corruption on the previous PSWID Board, because there was no corruption. As far as I am concerned RCW did a very good job of firing any and all accusations at the previous board in order to manipulate the anger in the community about Brooke Utilities. IF THERE WAS CORRUPTION WHY DIDN'T RCW GO TO THE AUTHORITIES AND BRING CHARGES?
We now have a PSWID Board that believes in tax and spend. $45,000 for water conservation? The national average of water usage is 350 gallons of water per household per day, I believe that Payson's daily per household average is about 240; and Pine well Pine comes in at 140 gallons a day per household. Because of the ever present water shortage in Pine, Pine residents know about water conservation and know what to do to conserve water. What Pine needs is more water. Where is the water that RCW candidates in their campaign slogan said "We have water now/"
Returning to the tax and spend $1,000 for travel expenses and heaven only knows how much in attorney fees. Come on the community needs water this money should be used to find it and not for someone's pet project.
Believe me, I am not against the water company purchase. Like Tom I believe the people have spoken. So, let's use all the monies available toward that purpose and not divert funds to other unworthy causes. This is Pine/Strawberry not Washington, D.C. where pork seems to rule.
RCW made all sorts of unsubstantiated accusations in the last battle. The cruelest one of all was corruption. To bring this accusation up again after the hardworking volunteers have been removed is really hitting below the belt.
Could it be that RCW is now slinging the accusation to diffuse the reasons Barbara Hall (actions of the present board that are possibly illegal but definitely unethical) gave for her imminent resignation from the board?
If you have the facts state them and have the authorities bring charges. It is not too late.
"Could it be that RCW is now slinging the accusation to diffuse the reasons Barbara Hall (actions of the present board that are possibly illegal but definitely unethical) gave for her imminent resignation from the board?"
Is that statement an "unsubstantiated accusation" itself? If what we all want is the truth and factual information then it is everyone's responsibility to put these bitter confrontations away and get on with resolving the issue. Certainly there are going to be as many "opinions" as there are residents and not everyone is going to be happy with the exact method or procedures used to seek resolution to the problem. But it seems some just can not let go of their disappointment and want to continue to stir the pot. Many of us will not get directly involved in this just because of that circumstance. I can only hope that given some time those wounds will heal and both communities can move forward, but knowing human nature I am not holding my breath.
I was not theorizing about Barbara Hall's reasons -- that was what she said. I am theorizing about what RCW's motives are based on my past experience with them. I am quite willing to put the hatchet away. However, I just boil when someone accuses hardworking, honest volunteers of being corrupt when the "battle" is over. The former board is gone. Why continue to call them corrupt especially when there is no proof. It was a cheap shot.
This is a small community and let's not call our neighbors corrupt.
I am really on my soap box today. (Just don't get me going on corruption :-).) At the May 1st meeting, Bill Haney announced that PSWID has submitted an 11 page proposal to Brooke Utilities dealing with a possible purchase of the water companies. So, I believe the Board is progressing toward their goal of purchasing the water companies.
As I have said before, no one should be surprised by this water companies purchase. Michael Greer sat at the front table at more than one RCW meeting and said that he wanted to purchase the water companies, at another RCW meeting Steve Morken presented a financial plan dealing with the water companies purchase, at the RCW candidates barbeque Ray Pugel presented the four candidates with a letter of "intent to serve" providing the water companies were purchased. Etc.
So, Tom, I do not think Strawberry residents have any basis for objecting to purchasing the water company. For that matter, no one in the area should have any objection. Before the election, RCW made its intent to purchase very clear. A vote for their candidates was a vote to purchase the water companies.
I hope that the purchase is done in a manner that protects of the interests of the taxpayer afterall we are footing the bill.
Hey, Tom - wasn't ignoring you - just have a life to handle right now.... :-)
I didn't say that you said anything derogatory about RCW, all I was saying was that it is no longer necessary for RCW to function. And, as I mentioned, we support (or not) the decisions of PSWID. So, my mistake if I didn't make it clear, and I wasn't being critical of you.
Bernie, you and I will probably never see eye to eye on anything. If I feel that the previous board members were corrupt, I have substantiated proof of it, in that which I've read and have listened to accounts from upstanding citizens of the community. If I want to call them corrupt, I will. We ALL volunteer our time, efforts and energy into community service in one way or another, but I certainly don't stand on a mountain top and shout out how much effort or financial support I've invested. I feel that giving should be just that - giving - without accolades.
Barbara Hall's resignation was a shock to everyone, and trust me, she will be throughly questioned at the next meeting of the PSWID since it is mandatory that it be an agenda item. I suggest that if you're interested, you should attend. It will be May 17th (Saturday) at 2pm. MY understanding was that she did not make it clear that the "illegal" activity she referred to had to do with the PREVIOUS board members.
Note: The Payson Roundup does not necessarily agree with comments posted below - responsibility lies with the relevant user alone. Read our full policy.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on April 23, 2008 at 4:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The recent controversy over the K2 well has created so much ill will between Pine and Strawberry that PSWID can no longer represent the interests of our two once friendly communities.
In truth, PSWID never did represent both towns. Looking back over the record it looks like it was working to get water for Pine all right, but I don't see anything much about getting water for Strawberry in the record, do you? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Prior to PSWID, the K2 controversy, and the recent recall election, Pine and Strawberry were two small mountain communities that more or less thought and acted together.
What went wrong?
Simple. Creating one water district to represent the interests of two separate towns, when those interest happen to be in direct opposition to each other, was a really bad idea.
The people of Pine desperately need water.
The folks in Strawberry want to protect the water that lies beneath their town.
How could anyone have ever thought that two towns, with those obviously conflicting needs, could possibly be represented by one water district?
Nonsense!
From the day it was formed, PSWID was doomed to run into the exact kind of trouble it ran into. The instant that the suggestion was made that water for Pine be drawn from beneath Strawberry a battle between the two towns was inevitable.
Does it matter that it might not have harmed Strawberry? No! The folks in Strawberry have an absolute right to act and think as they like. That’s their right.
And the folks in Pine need water, and that's a fact.
But the end result is that PSWID has to go. It cannot possibly represent the opposing interests of the two towns.
It's Arizona v. Nevada over the Colorado water or Payson v. Star Valley over the Tower Well all over again.
You can't have one organization representing two separate sets of interests.
So what do we do?
It's obvious, isn't it? We dissolve PSWID, form a PWID and SWID, share the existing tax funds equitably, and go our separate ways.
Doesn't mean we can't cooperate when it is in our best interests. It just means that we have a Strawberry board representing Strawberry, and a Pine board representing Pine.
We should have done that in the first place!
I'll say it again: PSWID must go!
Just put the petition to dissolve PSWID, create a PWID and a SWID, share the existing funds equitably, and have two separate elections for new board members in front of me and I'll sign it!
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on April 23, 2008 at 4:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Folks, the system has gone nuts!
Please ignore my comments on the old string relating to PSWID.
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 23, 2008 at 5:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom,
The first fracture I witnessed between these two communities occurred during the discussion and presentation that took place at the Community Center when Robert Hardcastle explained the Magnolia Project to the customers for the first time. It was very obvious then as now that the divide and conquer approach was his intention. Pine Water Company customers on water restrictions and meter moratorium and Strawberry Water Company had neither.
I still have a clear memory of the reaction of the Strawberry residients regarding having ANY of their water going to assist their neighbors in Pine. It was a real good example of neighbor helping neighbor. NOT!!! The PSWID had nothing at all to do with that project or meeting, it was all a Brooke Utility show and tell. The reality was that it was mainly for show anyway since Brooke owns both companies and had already justified to and got approval from the ACC based on the proposed benefit of joining the two communities water systems.
It was at that point that I believe the stake was driven between the collective interests of both Pine and Strawberry. And as I've pointed out before, the PSWID was basically useless in trying to resolve the conflict. How could they? They have not real authority.
If all the geological studies are close to being accurate, it would be in Strawberry's interest to bury the hatchet as the water in the deep aquifer from which the Strawberry Hollow system and the Milk Ranch well are tapped into mainly lies below Pine and spreads on South of Payson. As Strawberry is fixing to learn, water hauling and restrictions are a reality until such time as all the collective water sources are brought together under one municipal agency for the benefit of both communities equally. Then perhaps we can ALL get on with our lives.
Posted by SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) on April 23, 2008 at 5:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
OK, I guess you are tired of hearing from me. I do have a tendency to suffer from tunnel vision. However, something has gotten into me, and I just can't hold back from responding. First, I'd like to say I am not reacting to the current PSWID Board because of sour grapes. My reaction comes out of fear. My fears are based on the following: (1) the hiring of a controversial attorney; (2) the explanation that there is no attorney conflict of interest because the same water sharing agreement will be used for all well owners (but who is writing that agreement); (3) the statement of the PSWID co-chair quoted in the Payson Roundup that she wants to save 20 million gallons of water in the area through conservation. Conservation is admirable, however, the Pine/Strawberry community already leads the conservation battle at the average usage of 140 gallons a day per household versus the national average of 350 gallons a day per household. The need is not conservation, but more water; (4) This board came in with only one goal: the purchase of the water companies. I believe that in their rush to meet this goal, they might make some rash decisions; (5) the current PSWID chairman has made statements to me that have proved to be wrong. I believe that he does not always gather the facts and carefully examine them before making statements to the public. I also believe that he might have a tendency to make decisions without all the facts; (6) how can the current PSWID Board make the statement that the district has always been a domestic water district when since its inception, it did not act as one and no one thought of it as a domestic water district?
Finally, there is some new James Bossart testimony. I suggest that you go to the Arizona Corporation Commission site, click on e-docket, ether the case# W-03512A-06-0407, click on documents and then find the James Bossart testimony.
Dissolving PSWID is a new idea. Maybe that is what has to be done. However, would the two separate entities be able to generate enough income to solve the problem?
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on April 23, 2008 at 8:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
TOM,
GET A NEW COMPUTER LIKE I DID AND YOU CAN'T DO
ANYTHING. (:
I posted this on your other thread but you said you were thru with it
so will post it on here.
Neither Pine or Strawberry is a town, They are communities with no legal standing. They need to each incorportate or incorporate together then they will have some legal standing and stop all the wild cat drilling.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on April 24, 2008 at 7:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Chief,
I agree with you. And I too remember the time when the wedge went in. I had my doubts about it then, and still do now.
Here's my take on the two communities ever getting together again:
My experience (not a happy one!) has been that people will believe whatever they want to believe, especially if it happens to be something that might hurt them. I doubt that there is anything that will ever erase the suspicion Strawberry folks have that Pine has its eye on their water.
Why?
Well, to be honest, it's true. Not in a nasty, thieving sort of way, but just because Pine is so desperately in need of water.
So the answer is simple: Two water districts, each one looking out for the people in its own town. That's only right.
At this point in time, it's the only way to go. It ensures that each town is represented by its own people, and there's no way that that can be anything except a good thing.
Like quit fighting and go our separate ways.
As I said, when it comes time for cooperation over something that both communities want, then they can work together. Other than that, is makes no sense to have one water district representing two towns.
Project Magnolia (a name I have always hated!) was shoved down the throats of the people in Strawberry, who were already mad as hell about having their water trucked to Pine during the summer. I knew some folks up there who got almost no sleep as the trucks rolled back and forth all night, and I have no doubt that added to the anger up there.
That anger is not going to go away for a long time. Talk about rubbing it in! Not only are we taking your water, but we're keeping you awake all night while we do it. Oy!
I sincerely believe that the correct solution is to form a PWID and a SWID, divide up the current funds, and get on with things.
As for how much money will be generated, I think it will be sufficient for what water improvement districts are supposed to do, namely look for water. Doesn't take megabucks to do that.
Let's hope that by doing what should have been done in the first place Strawberry and Pine will once again become two friendly communities. I think that will happen once the thorn is pulled out of the side of Strawberry.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on April 24, 2008 at 7:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Bernice,
You've got an organization. Why don't you talk to your people and see if they think that dissolution of PSWID is a good thing? If they do, you can then call the Roundup, get some publicity for a forthcoming petition, and then go forward with it.
But look. There could be problem because of the fact that your organization was on one side of the recent, and very bitter, recall election.
If you decide to go forward with a petition to dissolve PSWID, it would be wise to form an entirely new organization and make it very plain that the petition drive has nothing whatsoever to do with past controversies.
I would invite people who were on the other side of the fight to join with you in an effort to do what is best for everyone. And I would advise everyone to forget the past and work together for the good of all.
I feel sure that the folks in Strawberry will heavy a great sigh of relief to see the end of PSWID. It has really been PWID all along from what I have seen, and I sure that the folks in Strawberry would like to see what they view as a very large millstone (Pine) removed from their necks.
And the folks in Pine will sign the petition because they will then be free to control their own future.
It's a win-win situation all around.
I'll tell you something else. I will personally breathe a great sigh of relief when I at last see all the anger, and suspicion, and recrimination, and name-calling come to an end.
It's time to move on.
Let's do it!
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on April 24, 2008 at 9:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Brooke does not want to drill a well with thier own money in Strawberry, Pine or anywhere else.
Ray Pugel drilled a well in Pine and has plenty of water from what I have read on here.
Why can't Brooke do the same thing??
Posted by SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) on April 25, 2008 at 7:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom and Pat, I will let it go and start saving my money for the big tax bite that is sure to come.
Please remember I am not against purchasing Brooke Utilities, the people have spoken, and I agree that Brooke has not done a good job. However, I would like to see the purchase done in a manner that is in the best interests of all the taxpayers in the Pine/Strawberry area.
I don't think the present board is headed in a direction that protects those interests.
As someone said, we will have to wait to see how this plays out.
And, like I said start putting away money to meet the future tax bills.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on April 25, 2008 at 10:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Bernice,
You didn't answer the question as to whether or not you would be interested in circulating a petition to get us out of a situation which is bound to produce endless squabbling.
I'd really like to know. Someone has to do it. And now!
I say now because I'd like to forestall the hot and heavy fighting that is going to come when the Strawberry folks realize that they are going to be asked to buy a water company in Pine. God! We don't need to go through all that again.
I would start up and circulate a petition myself, but I am a 24/7 caretaker; I have to make an appointment to breathe.
That, by the way, is the reason why I never attended any of the meetings on either side of the now dead (let's hope!) issue.
I would have loved hearing both sides first hand instead of having to rely on word of mouth or tapes that sometimes didn't catch all that was being said.
Pat,
I spoke to Ray right after he drilled his well. He said the total cost was under $240,000. He started to add something, and I got the impression that he was going to amend his statement and explain that part of the $240,000 was for something else, but I'll stick with that figure for now because it certainly sounds fair to me.
That's a downright reasonable price for a well which can produce a substantial amount of water. And Ray corrected me when I said that it was only a test drilling and wasn't cased. He says that it is cased all the way down, and I certainly have no reason not to believe him. Everything he has ever told me has turned about to be the gospel truth.
Now quite obviously the mere existence of a well is not the end of the matter. There's the question of hookup and storage, and with a deep well like that there may be sand or other corrosive materials which have to be dealt with, and that's not dirt cheap, a fact you have already brought up. And there are other considerations as well.
But if we have a PWID and SWID, instead of PSWID, which is bound to be a source of never ending squabbles between our two towns, maybe we can get something going.
As far as the purchase of the water company is concerned, it will never happen while PSWID exists. The minute the people in Strawberry wake up to the fact that they are being asked to buy the water company in Pine, they will hit the roof, dig in their heels, and perhaps even clear out the board again.
And why shouldn't they? Why should they bear an increase in their taxes, or an increase in their water bills, or both, so that Pine can have a guaranteed supply of water?
Being a nice guy is fine, but that's carrying it a bit far.
So I say it again. Let's get together as two once-friendly towns, circulate a petition to separate us from each other, create a SWID and a PWID, and move on.
Can anybody tell me why that's not a good idea?
And that's a very sincere question. If I'm wrong, just tell me so.
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on April 25, 2008 at 11:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom,
Did you forget I live in Payson and by the time they get this all settled someone else will have my cabin in Pine and it won't be my problem.
I have given you all enough hints to stop the whole damn thing and no one seems to want to do anything constructive, just bitch.
If you or Bernice will call I will be glad to give you the information.
Once again neither Pine or Strawberry is incorportated so I don't think there is much they can do. Has anyone honest checked that out???
Posted by SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) on April 26, 2008 at 8:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I wish the problem was as easy as Pine vs. Strawberry. Unfortuntely, it is not. There are actually people in Strawberry who were for the K-2 Well just as there were people in Pine who were against the K-2 Well. The whole area is made up of feuding sub groups -- full timer vs. part timer, well owner vs. non-well owner, domestic water improvement district resident vs. non domestic water improvement district resident, etc.
Gila County, the developers and Brooke Utilities have taken advantage of all this infighting to benefit their interests and to the detriment of the community.
My problem happens to be with some of the realtors. When I bought my lot in Pine, I was told the water came to the lot line. I was not told that getting the water to the proposed house would be a problem. That information was given to me when I contacted a builder, and he told me about a moratorium. I have checked with many of the residents in the area, and most have told me they were never informed of the water problems in Pine. The people who bought the lot next to me also were not told about the moratorium. They went ahead and built anyway. They now haul water to their home. If my memory serves me correctly they have to make a "water run" about 6 times a month.
Another realtor told me that the reason Pine can't get a certificate for a 100 year water supply is because people have not been living in the Pine area for 100 years. The Valley can get 100 year water supply certificates because people have been living there that long.
I think my "doubting Thomas" routine with realtors is somewhat justified. So I guess I can be in another sub group realtor vs. purchaser.
I will talk to some people about your suggestion and see what they say. In the meantime, if you would like a report on PSWID Board meetings, please send your e-mail address to waterforpinestrawberry@hotmail.com. The writer of these reports does a good job of describing the meetings. You can also get copies of the PSWID agendas and meeting minutes at pswid.org.
I will try to call Pat Randall next week. She has hooked me in with the prospect of "information."
Hope you all have a good day. :-)
Posted by SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) on April 26, 2008 at 9:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I just thought that my last post needed some clarification. I do not mean that all realtors have a reality problem -- just that there are a few that do not uphold the standards of the profession. These few are giving the profession a bad reputation. I wish that the ethical realtors would take strong disciplinary action against the few bad eggs in the profession. It is difficult to take action against a fellow professional, but the action would do much to restore confidence.
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 26, 2008 at 12:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If all the issues associated with living in this area were not disclosed to you IN WRITING before you signed on the dotted line, then you should consider contacting an attorney and pursuing leagal action against the agent that managed your purchase. We moved to Pine 11 years ago and the agent who was working with us made sure we were acutely aware of the water situation up here. As is my habit, I had already researced all that via the Internet and was well informed as to the water problems existent in Pine and Strawberrty as well as Payson. The old adage "Caveat Emptor" comes to mind.
If you appreciate the time line, that was about the same time that Brooke Utilities took ownership of the 2 water franchises, so my experience has been only with that company and their representative, as opposed to whatever entity had prior ownership and the state of affairs up to that time.
Since I have lived here I have become acquainted with many of those in real estate since it is a small community and real estate is the dominant business in both communities. I know only one "professional" developer, and that would be Mark Fumusa. Since he built the Solitude Trails subdivision ha has been only been building single residences for those who have purchased vacant lots in the area, no more large developments. Ray Pugel is a Real Estate Broker but also has acquired and "developed" several pieces of property in the Pine area, but nothing that comes close to Solitude Trail gated subdivision in scope. I have no issue with either approach just as I have no problem with the already established ,undeveloped properties that remain being built out with full consideration of the current water issue. In the case of the Solitude Trails subdivision, they have their own water supply from wells owned by them and get their water via the Pine Water Company piping. They also supply Pine Water Company with a substantial amount of water to augment that company's insuficient supply.
So in my view, I do not see those in here in these two communities real estate as some evil force destined to destroy the very environment that attracted most of us to this locale in the first place. The large majority of them are our friends and neighbors and they have no wish to drastically alter the character of Pine or Strawberry either. Yes there is going to be continued growth on privately held undeveloped parcels water or no water. As you very well stated regarding those who are willing to haul water simply to locate here. Having said that, these communties are surrounded by National Forest and that is a very limiting factor as concerns the type of "development" most have in mind when they bring up that issue. The type of uncontrolled, massive development we have all seen in places we moved AWAY from. And yes, I am very familiar with Forest Service Land Swaps and that potential and am fully pre[paired to fight that battle should it arise.
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 26, 2008 at 12:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I sense a lot of the "close the gate behind me" attitude in this whole debate as if those who purchased available property up here do not have the same rights that we did to realize the potential of those properties. If we can in fact bring the residents together to get a reasonably trustworthy water supply along with the infrastructure to distribute it, I STILL do not expect some to pull in their selfish horns and quit complaining about the "change" taking place around us all. That I accept strictly as one of human nature's failings.
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on April 26, 2008 at 12:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Bernice,
My father inlaw Mel Randall was born in Pine in 1910. He was not the first child to be born there.
His father, Walter came to Pine with his parents when he was 6 years old. Something wrong with the math.
That has to be the dumbest remark that has come out of this whole bunch of BS that has been on here.
How do they build all the subdivisions out in the desert where no one has lived if that is how they figure the 100 year supply?
Posted by SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) on April 26, 2008 at 1:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I was not trying to make accusations against individuals nor did I mean to depict realtors as some evil force. I think I tried to say a few bad ones are giving the realtors a bad reputation. Please reread the one sentence where I mentioned developers. I was just trying to explain that there are many arguing factions in the area and much distrust. For every faction there are countless counter factions. Perhaps the reaction my post received best illustrates the point I was trying to make.
Pat, I agree the stuff about the 100 year water supply is pure nonsense. When the realtor told me that I almost laughed out loud. But, I didn't I just left.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on April 26, 2008 at 4:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Bernice,
The Chief is absolutely correct, as he usually is. If anyone was sold a house or a piece of property without being notified, in writing, of the fact that there is no 100 year water supply here, he or she has a case.
Also, I never said, and I don't believe, that the problem is "Pine v. Strawberry." However, a divide and conquer message was used during the K2 controversy. There are people in Strawberry who adamantly opposed the K2 and who swore that it would "never go in. That fact was used, and that attitide was fostered in other people in Strawberry. Sure, there were folks in Strawberry who didn't feel that way, but they very rapidly went from a majority to a minority during the K2 controversy.
It was widely circulated during the controversy that that water from beneath Strawberry would be used to solve the water woes in Pine. That, in and of itself, was enough to set the two towns against each other, and that attitude will literally last forever if we don't get PSWID dissolve, and do it right away!.
It's useless now to try to patch up things. The only answer is to separate. We can talk about cooperative efforts later.
Spending time watching what PSWID is doing is an exercise in futility. PSWID no longer represents the interests of either Strawberry or Pine. It can't; those interest are 180 degrees apart.
Take just one thing: The purchase of Pine Water Company. Why in the world would the people in Strawberry want to encumber themselves with that type of debt?
We need to act now. Talk to your friends. Point out the facts. Let them see for themselves that the only sane solution is to form two water improvement districts.
As to what real estate agents say, my experience is that in any group there are a few individuals who walk around with dollar signs in their eyes, sometimes giving the whole group a bad name. We have some great realtors up here, and many fine agents working for them. If you have had a problem with an agent you might just get in your car, drive to the realtor involved, and sit down with the person who has the license.
===================
I'm still waiting for someone to tell why creating an SWID and a PWID is not a good idea.
I suspect the silence on that question says it all.
Let's do it!
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on April 26, 2008 at 4:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Pat,
I think incorporating would be a bad move for these two tiny communities. Not enough money to provide the services now provided by the county.
Not only that, but the very first thing that would happen would be a full scale war as the newly created community tried to get all of the current water private water supplies under its control.
I can see it all now. You cannot imagine the anger smoldering among full-time Pine residents during water hauling periods when they see people in private enclaves washing off their driveways with water that was drawn from the same water table.
Oh, man! What a fight that would be!
I've seen some bitter battles, but I would prefer to be under the soil when that one happens, which it will some day.
But not, I hope, in my day.
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 26, 2008 at 4:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hi Bernice,
I hope you noticed that both my previous posts were not addressed to you specifically. I was generalizing in my overall impression of this whole debate and not just to those who post on these threads. If you took it as a personal affront, please accept my apology. The opening paragraph about not having issues fully disclosed is applicable to anyone purchasing anything, anywhere.
The denigration of "developers" and proponents of uncontrolled growth as the evil forces behind the whole water resource acquisition debate is well documented. I have yet to hear any of the detractors provide concrete proof of all their allegations regarding "uncontrolled development" occuring if both Pine and Strawberry do manage to get local control of our precious water resources. I see that whole approach as a "red herring" argument.
I have duly noted that you also are in favor of letting the residents of these 2 communities have predominant control over the water system. I do have some small background in municipal water systems as water was my stock in trade for 30 years and required me to have a fairly comprehensive understanding of those systems. I certainly have no illusions that acquisition and maintenance of such a system has significant costs associated with it. But , appreciate that every penny spent by water users under a locally controlled Municipal Water District
goes into the system operation and maintenance. Some would even be available for "exploration and research". Currently a minimal amount of that revenue generated goes back into our system and a fair chunk goes to the stockholders of Jayco Oil in California. That's simply the capitalist system at work where bottom line profit is the overarching priority. I'm okay with that for most products and services, but not when it comes to such a vital necessity as water.
I appreciate that I am preaching to the chior and that you and I are probably more in agreement than might be appairent. But this is a very critical debate that is taking place. Tom , myself and untold others did not serve in the Armed Forces, protecting and defending the Constitution of the United States so that we or anyone else could stifle another citizens views or opinions. We may disagree on some issues but in all sincerety I have the absolute, utmost of respect for anyones right to freely express their thoughts.
PS:
You do know that we live a stones throw one from another don't you?
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 26, 2008 at 5:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom,
Okay, I'll take the bait. The formation of 2 separate "districts" does merit some consideration. I would offer however that currently the 2 communities are in fact "linked" in their common interests even without the physical connection provided by the Magnolia pipeline.
There is a very substantial risk to the residents of Strawberry if they do try to go it alone. Currently none of the wells in the Strawberry plain are tapped into the R aquifer. The only 2 I am aware of are the Milk Ranch well and the 2 in Strawberry Hollow, both which reside in Pine. As individual lots are built out in Strawberry, there is a strong likelyhood that the existing shallow wells up there will start to diminish in their flows, requiring Strawberry to seek water fronm the deeper aquifers. The old "too many straws in the same glass" phenom.
Considering their geographical proximity to the Fossil Springs, that drilling may not be possible due to a potential impact on Fossil Springs which has untold protection and support from the environmentalists. If that proves to be the case then Strawberry could find itself dependent upon water augmentation from Pine's deep wells sent back up the Magnolia pipeline.
I think what you propose has merit but I also think the folks in Strawberry may be taking a very shortsighted view of the entire issue. Not doubt that the disagreement as it currently stands is troublesome. But with some diplomacy on the part of those who have any leadership ability at all in this issue, perhaps we can actually come together for the long term benefit of both Pine and Strawberry. As you can tell I tend toward eternal optimism. I should not!!
Posted by SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) on April 26, 2008 at 9:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ron,
No I didn't know that we lived a stone's throw away from each other, but I do now. I feel that you have an advantage over me insofar as you know who I am, but I am in the dark about you. However, I think we live right around the corner from each other and since you know where I live I hope you and your wife can stop by sometime, or if you walk by or drive by while I'm out, I hope you will stop and identify yourself. I spend a lot of time out in front fighting the weed war --
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 26, 2008 at 10:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I apologize for putting you at a disadvantage and you are right, as neighbors there is absolutely no excuse for my not introducing myself in the past. I will try to stop by and make a formal intro the next time I pass by and see you tending the front yard. By the way , those are some awesome daffodils you grow.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on April 27, 2008 at 3:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey! Daffodils! My favorite flower! Has been all my life.
I've tried growing them in my front yard, and had some success in the past, but they now suffer from three things: Shade from my two pines, lack of rain, and my inability to take the time to water them.
My crocuses and tulips have the same problem. I get some greenery but no flowers.
I love crocuses. There was one lone crocus, a white one, that poked its head through the snow in our front yard every year. I didn't know its name at first, but I found out what it was.
The blade of a bulldozer ended its life when they tore down the old Victorian we lived in while I was overseas. I sure wish i could have saved the poor little thing, but when people with dollars signs in their eyes come along nothing is sacred.
When we moved up here one of the first things I did was plant some crocuses. I breaks my heart that I can't find the time to take care of them. That's life, I guess. I have something more important to take care of.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on April 27, 2008 at 3:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Chief,
I've heard that one about tapping into Fossil Creek, but it sounds like a non-issue to me. And to be perfectly honest I think it was generated by K2 opponents in their scarmble to find reasons--any reasons--to stop the K2 well from going in.
In the first place, the source of Fossil Creek is up on the Rim above 7,000 feet, far distanced from Strawberry. And it flows on the surface downhill. How in the world could a well that is 1200 or more feet underground, tapped into a completely different source of water have any effect on a creek that flows on the surface?
And then you take the land distance to the K2 well site from Fossil Creek and the whole thing becomes ridiculous.
Now I'm not close minded on the thing, but I'm still waiting for anyone to poke a whole in those comments. In truth, I've been wait for someone to poke a hole in them for many long months, ever since I responded to the idea that the K2 could have any effect on Fossil Creek.
All the opponents of the K2 could ever do was repeat the same dire "concerns" over and over again. Not one word of concrete fact did they ever come up with. My belief is that there are no such "facts."
And if I may be allowed to point out an obvious fact that was ignored, or perhaps deliberately hushed up, during all the conflict, if the fact that the K2 would go into the "R" acquifer has any effect on Fossil Creek, then the Milk Ranch well and the well in Strawberry Hollow have exactly the same effect. What about that?
As for "Project Magnolia" I personally think that in consideration of the wishes--and rights--of the people of Strawberry it's time that it be capped and forgotten. Pine needs to find its own sources of water and leave Strawberry alone.
I say that even though I live in Pine. We've been limping along and living on patches, on patches, on patches for too long. It's time we got up on our hind legs and found a viable, long-term solution for our water troubles.
Want to know what I think that solution is? Blue Ridge.
So my goal is to form a PWID and begin whatever work it takes to cooperate with Payson and its pipeline, get Blue Ridge water here, and go on with our lives. Perhaps we could learn to live like normal people.
I am so sick of hearing about water I almost hate to drink the stuff anymore!
And the other side of the coin is obvious. Let Strawberry form its own water district and control its own water. It would be about time!
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on April 27, 2008 at 3:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think you have to be incorporated and have a municipal water co before tapping into Blue Ridge. Seems I remember 'them' saying that at a council meeting.
With all that has been going on in my family I may be mistaken about that. Someone should check into it.
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 27, 2008 at 4:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom,
If I might I'll take each point of your response and try to express my thoughts.
Fossil Springs is just that. It's source is an underground spring, not surface runoff. Even during this prolonged drought Fossil Springs flow has remained fairly consistent as it has for over 80 years. Ask any of the APS geologists that confirmed the viability of that source BEFORE APS made the investment and decision to build both the Childs and Irving power plants. Now as to the "R" aquifer being contiguious or interconnected with that Fossil Springs source, no-one to my knowledge has ever done any test to either confirm or dispute that possibility. And if there is even the remotest possibility that it does, you and I know the environmentalists will put the onus on whoever is going to drill in that vicinity to prove it one way or the other. You can bet the environmetalists aren't going to foot that cost.
I would agree that it is highly unlikely, based on geographic location that the K2 would have such and impact, but in my previous posts I was not pointing to the K2 site as the solution to Strawberry's future water needs. As we already know, even though assurances were made that there were no access or easment issues with that site, there is in fact a condemnation proceeding under way to "take" the necessary property to actually make devlopment otf that well feasable.What I was inferring was that if Strawberry elected to drill for a deeper well geographically located in Strawberry that puts it in closer physical proximity to the Fossil Springs "spring" as was done when the PSWID actually sunk an "exploratory" well some years ago the effect and results of which have never been publically confirmed or disputed. That was the well exploration Pat mentioned in several of her posts that no one ever responded about because the info was never made known. Why was that since it was our money that paid for it? Just a simple question with no acusations of ulterior motives implied.
Unless you have some better "facts" regarding the character/structure of the "R" aquifer than has been provided by all the geological/hydrological studies that have been done on it, then there is a very plausible explanation for why a well sunk in the Western regions of Strawberry would in fact impact the Fossil Springs "spring" while the Milk Ranch and Strawberry Hollow wells would not have a similar effect. The "R" aquifer is not some giant void full of water that encompasses several square miles 3K feet under us. It is in rock strata that even though contiguous, can produce well or reluctantly based on the point at which the aquifer is tapped.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on April 27, 2008 at 4:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey Chief,
I was a bit rushed before (medical problem with Lolly, which--THANK YOU LORD!--is over). So I didn't have a chance to ask you about your experience with water. Thirty years? Wow! That's impressive!
I am absolutely delighted that there is someone on the forum who actually knows what he's talking about where water is concerned. My only "experience" with geology is a handful of college course, maybe 20 or 24 hours, or something like that. That, plus my undergraduate degree, which was in chemistry, physics, and biology and helps me to understand what people are talking about at times. I also taught geology, and when you teach a subject you learn a lot more about it. But a hyrdrologist I am not.
Anyway, it's great to have someone on here who can answer a question once in a while.
If you'd care to talk about your experience we'd love to hear it. Well, I would anyway. I sometimes suspect that some folks out there don't wany anyone around who can speak with authority.
==========
Pat,
I was done posting for the day until the Lord smiled on me and solved Lolly's problem. I just came back on to ask the Chief about the experience he mentioned, which I think is a boon to these discussions.
Anyway, I read your post and I think you are right, though I have not seen anything in writing. Any chance you could look into that somehow and get the exact wording?
It would be a great help, and I know you are good at digging up facts.
I think the way matters stand we up here in Pine have a claim to part of Blue Ridge. That being so, the exact wording is important.
I have heard, by the way, that the term used was "water supplier," not "municipal water." If that's so, then BUI could actually receive water for Pine until we come to a final decision concerning what we want to do about our future.
I'm not crazy about BUI, but if having them here enables us to get our share of Blue Ridge water my comment is DO IT!
By the way, Pat, what do you think of the idea of a separate SWID and PWID? I think it's the only way we will ever end the squabbling and get something done, and I'm downright excited about the idea.
Hope you and yours are doing well. My prayers today, which were answered, covered you too.
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 27, 2008 at 4:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Might I suggest that you subscribe to the free publication Southwest Hydrology. It is a quarterly magazine focused specifically on the water issues in the Southwest portion of the US. Although some of it is highly technical, much is understandible for the layman. It will provide you insight into just where and under what type of physical limitations the water resources in the entire region have been scientifically determined to exist. No axes to grind, or supposition or emotional rhetoric, just the science as they understand it to be at this point in time.
Now to the Magnolia Project. In his business decision process Mr. Hardcastle appairently felt that one of his options of resolving the water shortages he was faced with in his Pine Water Company franchise, was to tap into Brooke's very own Strawberry Water Company franchise and move that water via truck or pipeline to Pine. Since Brooke holds the franchise and property rights to their wells in both communties, it was a pure business decision. Even though it might be hard for people, especially in Strawberry to accept, Mr. hardcastle has as much right to that water as do they. He can use it locally or tank it up and move it wherever his company has need for it. rather than pay contunual trucking costs to move it to Pine, he put in the Magnolia pipeline which he was allowed to charge back the expense to the customers of Pine Water Company. it has been deemed by the ACC as a Pine Water Company asset, not a Strawberry Water Company asset, since the Pine water Company customers footed the bill. As I understand it that is also the case with at least 2 Brooke wells sunk in Strawberry that were paid for by Pine Water Company customers.
Now I think many of us would agree that that approach may be perfectly okay from a pure business standpoint, but also agree that it is morally repugnant. A reliable and sustained source of water has been located in Pine as you know. Similarly productive wells have yet to be drilled in Strawberry up until the K2 is in fact finally a reality. The whole crux of the debate is how do we collectively acquire and combine all these water sources to the welfare and benefit of BOTH communties. you have stated your view on 2 separate and independant Improvemnt districts and as I said that approach has merit. But why in the world would 2 communities, both with limited funds, want to build the wheel twice when together they could combine resources ($$$$) and effort to resolve the issue once and for all for BOTH communities who are literally only 1 mile apart geographically and historically linked by families and bloodlines? Redundant effort of that type is a waste as far as I see it. The connection for sharing and combining (Magnolia) is there, why not use for the purpose it was initially designed for? That is supposidly a million dollars just laying in the ground. What a waste!
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 27, 2008 at 5:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Okay, lets talk CC Cragen (BlueRidge). I'll try to shed some light on my background with municipal water supply systems. I was a firefighter for 30 years. in that business wtare is our stock in tade so to speak. with that understanding we were required to take courses in municipal water supply systems. Main sizing, lateral frequency, pressure requirements, SUPPLY issues, and most other issues as pertained to what we used to fight demon fire. As a Fire engineer one is required very comprehensive training in hydraulics. That pertains mostly to the movement and supply of water under various geographical and physical contraints and limitations. When I mentioned that background to Bernice, I was referring to my appreciation for the inner workings of a municipal water supply system, not in any way tied to the science of Hydrology or Geology specifically. I certainly am not that schooled in those 2 disiplines even to the degree that you are. I do try to learn as much as I can as regards them however and tend to lean toward professionals in those fields for my information.
The water from CC Cragen looks like a "slam dunk" for Strawberry and Pine if one only looks at their relative locations geographically. I have visted one of the Phelps Dodge pump stations that is down stream from that reservoir and am reasonably familiar with the permitted rights of way that Phelps Dodge had to obtain for that project. That particular station is in the Washington Park area I believe on General Springs Creek. For Payson to access that flow they will have to provide a main line from some considerable distance East and install the pumps necessary to eventually bring the water into Payson, possibly following highway 260 if they can access an easement from ADOT. If not they will have to negotiate with the US Forest Service for rights-of-way over public land. For any of it to then be sent to Pine and Strawberry would require a main line and the necessary pumps to move the water from Payson up slope to those communities just below the Rim. If you think the aquisition costs of buying out Brooke and the other water "companies' in this area is cost prohibitive, just wait till you are presented with the costs of bringing CC Cragen water to Pine and Strawberry. And that is without even considering the Tonto National Forest right -of- ways and EIR studies that would have to be funded. And do not forget the fights that would come from the environmentalists regarding the "permanent" damage that such an undertaking would cause to the natural environment of the forest.
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 27, 2008 at 5:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
As I said I tend to be an optimist on some things but I'll bet we will not see CC Cragen water in our communities in our lifetime. Even with all the available USDA Rural grants and subsidies. I am not disagreeing with you that surely that source would be the "end all" for the water issue, I just think it will be cost prohibitive if based soley on the small number of people it bebefits. The old "cost/benefit" conundrum.
I am pleased to hear that your prayers were answered today and will keep you and yours in our continued paryers. I know there are those that belittle the power of prayer, but you will not hear that view from my lips. In my faith I have come to accept who is really in charge of all things and I beseach Him often as required of my earthly, humble condition. May God's loving kindness and blessings be with you and Lolly during this time of difficulty.
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 27, 2008 at 5:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom,
On the issue of your personal family challeges at this time. I apologize for not offering you my help should you need it. If you need to have someone run an errand for you or help in any way, simply let me know and I'll do whatever I can. I'm in the phone book and either me or my wife go into Payson at least once a week to assist my 87 year old mother living there. If there is anything you need, I'll try to be there for you.
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on April 27, 2008 at 8:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom,
To lighten things up a little.
When my brother inlaw had small grandchildren he was having a problem getting them to do something he wanted, and asked them "Who is boss?"
Three of them spoke at the same time and said, " God is."
To answer your question, I think Pine and Strawberry will fight forever over water until they incorporate together or apart. Look at Payson and Star Valley.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on April 28, 2008 at 2:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Chief,
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your offer of help. All I can say is thank you, thank you, thank you!
As to the other things you said about Blue Ridge water et al, I've had many of the same thoughts, but Payson seems so danged optomistic about what they are doing it may just be that some of that has spilled over into my thinking.
The data you provided about BUI, Project Magnolia, the ownership of the wells, and so on, was largely new to me and much of it is thought provoking. There's another aspect to all of that too, and that's the fact that Bob Hardcastle has yet to weigh in on all this. I suspect that when some folks around here decide to lean on BUI they may discover that they are lightweights by comparison.
As to the separation of the two communities as far as water districts are concerned, if I thought there were any real possibility of us getting together in the near future I would say stay with PSWID. But there just isn't. PSWID will be powerless to get anything done the instant it requires a consensus of the people in these two communities. I tell you, Chief, I know people up in Strawberry who have sat and listened to what is being said up there. Those folks absolutely WILL NOT cooperate in any effort to get water for Pine because of the historic problems. They'll deliberately torpedo any efforts that PSWID makes.
And if anyone thinks for one minute that thay will sit still for any effort to buy Pine Water at their expense he must be smoking funny cigarettes. The only reason they supported the candidates that won the recent recall election was to stop the K2. They are dead set against buying Pine Water Company. Imagine what those folks up there in Strawberry will do when it comes time to put out THEIR money to by a water company so that Pine can have water? Oh boy!
The folks I'm talking about were absolutely gleeful over the failure of the effort to put in the K2. They don't want to be tied to Pine in any way, and that's that! So, I'll say it again. Let them go. Let them form their own water district and do what they want. It's their right after all.
And let Pine form a PWID and finally get on with the problem of solving its water problems. If the number of meter owners is reduced by separating from Strawberry, and that means that less tax money is available, well that's not only the way it has to be, it's the only fair way of getting things done.
We're the ones who need the water. We're the ones who will have to pay for it. End of story.
What I wish is that someone from Strawberry would weigh in on this issue on this forum. I'd like everybody to hear just how angry those folks are up there.
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 28, 2008 at 2:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom,
My offer of assistance is a standing offer. Let me know if I can be of assistance.
I think one of the things that has changed since all this started waaaay back in the Magnolia Pipeline debate, is that if you haven't noticed Strawberry now is on the same water restrictions and meter moratorium that Pine has been on for some time. Strawberry just this last year felt the issue of water shortage and outage. Give them a couple of years of incurring hauling charges and meter moratoriums and they may be infinately more sympathtic to Pine's problems.
Now there are a number of folks in Strawberry who have private wells and some of their reluctance to approving ANY more wells being sunk is self protection and I certainly understand that. But the legal, as opposed to moral reality is that they cannot prevent Brook or whoever has the franchise rights to their area, from utilizing that water and property anyway they deem necessary to their interests.
Am am perfectly willing to wait and give them (Strawberry residents) time to accept the reality of their new situation.
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on April 29, 2008 at 11:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom,
You haven't posted in over 24 hours, hope everything is o.k.
I still can't send email as Quest says it isn't their problem even tho I pay them for thier great package deal and to get out of it I have to pay penalty big time. They informed us they were not regulated by anyone.
How about that? Sounds like all the water companies. (:
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on April 29, 2008 at 11:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Pat,
I think we (we being Pine and Strawberry) ought to get together, rustle up some torches, pitchforks, hay rakes, and what not, attack the folks in Portals and Strawberry Hollow and chase them out into the swamp where the quicksand can swallow them up until the sequel, at which time they will return and prey on lonely women walking across the moors at night.
Won't get us any water, but it'll make a hell of a great pair of movies.
Anybody know where the swamp is?
No, chief, I haven't been drinking. I'm just beginning to suspect that we may be stuck with waiting.
Also, I just finished writing a Your Turn column on intuition and superstition, which brought back some memories and put me in a rather mellow mood.
You know what my problem is?
When I see a problem I go looking for a logical, workable solution. And being an eternal optomist I always make the same mistake: I think that finding a solution might actually get something done.
Back when I was in the Air Force, and happened to be in charge of something now and then, things actually worked that way.
That created a bad habit.
Gotta get rid of it!
PS: I agree with what you had to say. And thanks again for the offer.
I only hope that the tyros now running PSWID don't fritter away the little money we have on frivolities like trips, or total disasters like litigation with BUI.
I get very little of what I hope for.
Posted by SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) on April 30, 2008 at 1:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Well, I'm posting again. Chief, one of the things that has been mentioned along with the purchase of the water companies and upgrading of infrastructure is the installation of fire hydrants. Can you tell us what kind of water pressure, the size of pipes and any other requirements needed for fire hydrants. Then, I guess my next question is, does the current system have what is necessary to support fire hydrants and then, how much would it cost to bring the system up to the standard needed for fire hydrants?
I have not ignored Tom's suggestion about dissolving PSWID. I am not enthusiastic about this suggestion because I feel the two communities really do have to work together to solve the problem. I don't think either community can afford todo it alone. However,I have looked at Arizona Revised Statutes for enlightenment about how to go about dissolving. The statutes were not very helpful in that they said that PSWID could be dissolved by the County Board of Supervisors. Gave no hint as to how to get the supervisors to act.
I agree that the CCCragin pipeline would be terribily expensive. I suggest that you talk to Buzz Walker at Payson Municipal Water to get some exact figures.
Do you know that Pine/Strawberry water supplier has rights to Colorado River water. It is not being brought to the area because the cost of getting it here is very high.
Pat, I will call you asap. I have not been in Pine for some time. I am up here now and have just about caught up.
I am surprised that anyone in either community didn't realize that when they were voting for the four candidates(Calderon, Greer, Schliezer and Dickinson) they were voting to purchase the water companies. Mike Greer made it quite clear in more than one Rim Country Water meeting that he was going to pursue the water companies purchase if he was elected.
Posted by SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) on April 30, 2008 at 7:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Additional comments as to why everyone should have known that "Calderon, Dickinson, Greer and Schliezer's" main goal was the purchase of the water company -- A barbeque was held in support of the four candidates. At this barbeque it was announced that the four had been given a letter of "intent to serve" from Ray Pugel. I do not know all of the details of what happened at the barbeque, however, I do know that their was an "intent to serve" letter given to them as Ron Calderon told a group just that at the last PSWID meeting of the former board. I was a member of that group, so I had it directly from the "horse's mouth."
Furthermore, at later meetings of Rim Country Water, Fred Krafczyk started to "hint" that the Arizona Corporation Commission was really not acting in the best interests of the community. John Gliege also said something to the effect that although you were getting attention now that the ACC is really too busy with other matters to give us much attention. These "attacks" on the ACC were meant to undermine the argument that with a privately owned water company, the public at least had a chance to bring the ACC into a dispute with the water provider and provide some protection against exorbitant water rate increases.
What the public didn't know when they voted for the four candidates was that they would propose to spent plus or minus $50,000 to conserve water that we don't have; another $33,000 to hire a manager to manage a water company that we are several years off from owning; another $1,000 for travel expenses; a $1,000 a month retainer fee for an attorney and etc. The $1,000 a month retainer fee is laughable since that only covers 5 hours of work each month. After 5 hours, the taxpayers are paying Mr. Gliege $300 an hour. I might point out that the last time Mr. Gliege was involved in a PSWID matter (when the PSWID was under the control of the county board of supervisors) he cost the taxpayers about $80,000.
In other words -- we will buy the water companies, but hold on to your pocket book taxpayers as they find all these other things to spend money on.
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on April 30, 2008 at 9:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Bernice,
After reading the Colorado River part of ARS did you go to title 11-806.01 F and title 9.463. 01 J K L M N ?
Seems as tho most subdivisions in Pine, Strawberry and Payson do not qualifiy under the adequate 100 yr supply of water. I wonder how many developers and RE agents handed out the reports from the Dept of Water Resourse saying there was not an adequate supply of water?
Seems when they had the election they would have elected a full time resident of the area instead of someone that lives in Mesa.
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 30, 2008 at 2 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Bernice,
I see you are going to make me shake loos esome of the cobwebs that have taken over my brain. Appreciate that it has been over 10 years since I retired from the Fire Service and I'm sure some things have changed, as is par for the course. I had a sign on my desk when I managed the North Net Fire Training Center in Anaheim, it read' Expect Change!!"
Appreciate that most municipalities make every attempt to comply with a standard set by the ISO (InsuranceServicesOrganization) which actually does a very comprehensive grading of a city as relates to it's (city) ability to manage major fire disasters. A city's grade extrapolates into the insurance rates the citizens are charged. Not much of an impact on private individuals but a significant savings to the business community. The best grade would be Class 1.
The formula for all this is very complex but one aspect is the water supply system. The number of fire hydrants, their frequencie as relates to distance from structures, the size of water main they are attached to, and the average "fire flow" of each hydrant, the hydrants condition and maintenance, etc. Now some of the specifics I will mention are related to my experience during my career of 30 years. Some aspects may very well have changed (probably) and new materials or technology may have changed some of the equations.
The preferred ISO standard for water main sizes was an idealistic minimum of 10". If the main sizes were 8" or 6" there was a corresponding reduction in the scores for that situation. If the hydrants were too few or not spaced adequately then there was a cost for that. The actual "fire flow" and pressure readings are done on individual hydrants and also with adjacent fire hydrants flowing to ascertain a residual pressure. Don't want to get too technical so let me cut to the chase.
There is a cost/benefit to this ISO business that most cities are always confronted with. Is the cost of upgrading a deficient water system, an inadequate Fire Department (staffing, training, efficient equipment,etc), and the "general" condition of the structures within the city worth the insurance savings cost to the business community.
It's a real numbers crunching type of exercise. Some choose to make the investment and are rated a Class 1, others "skin the cat" and take a lesser rating and correspondingly higher insurance costs. That's a political decision.
As to the Pine/Strawberry area I would say there is little chance that any of this would even matter. My reasoning is that neither is an incorporated city plus they are situated in the forest interface. One simply could not afford the costs associated with what I mentioned above.
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 30, 2008 at 2:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
For these 2 communities to install what would be rated as an adequate fire hydrant system would definately be cost prohibitive. That does not mean that there are not things that can be done to provide at least some fire fighting capability as far as a hydrant system is concerned. Any experienced person in the firefightings business will tell you that a fire hydrant sitting on an undersized main with an inadequate water supply and pressure is practically worthless. In some cases it may be better than no hydrants at all, but certainly falls far short in meeting the needs for which they are designed. Most rural departments supplant that shortcoming by having water tenders (tanker trucks) that can draw water from a pond or lake and deliver it to the fire pumpers at the emergency. Between the sorrowful fire hydrant and the water tender the outcome is not always as favorable as it would be elsewhere. The time required to do this ( moving water via truck) is why rural firefighting is such a challenge as compaired to an average sized city. And to be even more direct, even if there was an adequate fire hydrant system in place with a fire department capable of maximizing it for structural protection, should our worst case scenario (a major forest crown fire wind driven), it will be only mariginally effective. For individual house fires and some small vegitation fires, it would be better than nothing all things being equal ie. response time of the fire department, their skill level, their equipment capabilitites, etc.
As when we spoke, I have often tried to share with folks who make the transition from a city into rural communities that the infrastructure here is far, far different than where they came from. Things that many simply took for granted in the city simply are marginally adequate in rural areas. Police protection, fire protection, sanitation systems, streets and roads, and of course water systems. I knew well what the risks were in moving into this type of environment from a fire standpoint, and I did my homework as regards the water situation. My wife and I still made the conscious decision to settle here.
Many people do not have a full appreciation for the differences and risks. Say a forest fires is coming this way, many feel that it will be their house that the fire engine is parked in front of with a bunch of firefighters standing by to save the home. NOT!! Even the big city departments have to do a "triage" if they have a forest or wildland interface in their jurisdiction. I have driven most of these 2 communities and I will tell you that most homes are "losers". I especially would not live in those homes situated at the tops of the ridgelines above deep brushy ravines ala Portals. In the fire service we call those areas chimneys, and for a good reason.
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on April 30, 2008 at 2:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sorry for being so wordy and I admit I probably did not answer all your questions. I hope I did shed some light on the major undertaking and costs associated with putting in place a "rated" fire hydrant system in either one of these two communities. Once again, some of the downside of living in rural America.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on April 30, 2008 at 11:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Here's a story to add a little levity to all this:
When I moved here I noticed that a fire hydrant stood more or less on the line between my newly purchased property and the one south of it.
That being the case, I checked off the block for having a "Fire hydrant within one hundred feet of property line" and got a reduction in my house insurance.
When I happened to mention it to my 84 year old neighbor he laughed so hard I thought he was going to laugh himself right into the grave.
The hydrant is real. It's not hooked up, of course.
Just proves what the Chief said. It never occurred to me that having a fire hydrant was anything unusual. Us New York City folks kids sorta take them things for granted.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on May 1, 2008 at 12:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Bernice,
Having read what you had to say about how the board members are wasting our tax money, and also having read the reports sent out by e-mail, I think the waste is reason enough to dissolve PSWID!
There isn't much of it to waste! We need it for the real job, and that is, of course, finding some way of ending our water problems.
And, Bernice, though I respect your feelings about the need for our two communities to work together, the reality is clear: It is not going to happen.
How do you think RCW managed to stop the drilling of the K2, the first viable solution to our water problems ever offered by anyone? They simply used the old "divide and conquer" method, setting Strawberry aginst Pine. It worked, and it worked well, but the aftermath is a situation where the two towns will not work together.
Why should they? Their interests are diametrically opposed. Now that the genie is out of the bottle, Bernice, no one is going to get it back in again. Not even the RCW folks, who let it out as a part of their well oiled campaign.
You don't have to worry about PSWID actually ever buying Pine Water Company. The voters in Strawberry will quickly realize that a property tax increase, or water rate increase, or possibly both, will hit them solely for the purpose of solving the water woes in Pine.
You think they dug in their heels on the K2?
Watch what happens when we try to get them to buy Pine Water Company!!
No, the only way that ANY solution to the water problems in Pine is every going to happen is to cut the water district in two and let each town do what it wants to do.
Otherwise, from what you are saying about PSWID, all I can see in the future is:
1) BUI forever.
2) Water hauling charges--as the British put it--do. (eg: ditto).
3) The draining of the tax money that could have been used for the K2--or any other well--on frivololities.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on May 1, 2008 at 12:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Here's a note that I hope someone gets to Ray since I can't get out of the house to talk to him personally:
Ray,
I have, as you know, always been in favor of your separating your proposed development from Pine Water Company. Along with that, as I mentioned to you personally, I would like to see the well that you and Robert drilled used to supplement the water supply in Pine (although I preferred the K2 as a simpler solution, and made no secret of my preference).
You are an infuencial person in town. So are Robert and Cindy. For your own good, and that of the town, you need to use that influence to get things moving.
I'd like to suggest to you, Robert, Cindy, et all, that the current direction the PSWID board is taking is unlikely to produce any kind of solution for the water problems in Pine. I believe (because of what is being reported as happening at board meetings) that funda are being drained off which will be needed for the fight with BUI.
For example, though I recognize the obvious need for legal advice, we do not yet need that advice. Retaining a lawyer is a waste of money at this point in time. And finding funds to replace that money is not going to be easy.
Furthermore, any move by PSWID to buy out BUI is going to be met with immense resistance by the folks in Strawberry. In effect, in trying to keep the K2 from going through, RCW inadvertently created a "monster," one that will now have to be dealt with.
That "monster" is the implacable resistance of the folks in Strawberry to the purchase of Pine Water Company. RCW did what the Japanese did in WWII. It "awakened a sleeping giant and filled it with terrible resolve."
I ask you, Ray, please think over what I am saying here.
All your prior efforts, and those of many others, are going to go down the drain unless you, and others who influence what goes on in Pine, put the weight of your opinion behind the separation of PSWID into SWID and PWID.
RCW, which I opposed because I wanted to see the K2 go in, had as its goal the purchase of Pine Water Company. But unless something is done--and done now!--to stop wasteful spending by PSWID and to cut it into two separate water disricts, all that effort will come to nothing.
BUI will come out on top by retaining Pine Water Company, water hauling charges will continue (and will get much higher if BUI loses its current source--its wells in Star Valley), construction of new homes in Pine will virtually end, and sales of existing homes will plummet.
You may wonder why I am so interested in the purchase of the water company, but if you will go back and read my posts on this blog you will see that my position was that we should support whichever side won the battle over the K2. True to my word, I am doing that.
One way or another, Pine has got to get water.
Posted by AZangel99 (Jane Wilcox) on May 1, 2008 at 2:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tom, one minor correction: RCW's goal has been accomplished. It was to remove what we thought to be corruption on the PSWID. Having removed those successfully, RCW has no further purpose than to support (or not support) the decisions that PSWID makes.
I feel that you can be confident that your open letter to Mr. Pugel reached him.
Have a great day-
J
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on May 1, 2008 at 10:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jane,
Thanks.
PS: Did I say that RCW had any purpose other than ? I looked but couldn't find it.
PPS: Does RCW still exist? I assumed it disbanded after the dispute ended.
Posted by SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) on May 5, 2008 at 6:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Let's stop the talk of corruption on the previous PSWID Board, because there was no corruption. As far as I am concerned RCW did a very good job of firing any and all accusations at the previous board in order to manipulate the anger in the community about Brooke Utilities. IF THERE WAS CORRUPTION WHY DIDN'T RCW GO TO THE AUTHORITIES AND BRING CHARGES?
We now have a PSWID Board that believes in tax and spend. $45,000 for water conservation? The national average of water usage is 350 gallons of water per household per day, I believe that Payson's daily per household average is about 240; and Pine well Pine comes in at 140 gallons a day per household. Because of the ever present water shortage in Pine, Pine residents know about water conservation and know what to do to conserve water. What Pine needs is more water. Where is the water that RCW candidates in their campaign slogan said "We have water now/"
Returning to the tax and spend $1,000 for travel expenses and heaven only knows how much in attorney fees. Come on the community needs water this money should be used to find it and not for someone's pet project.
Believe me, I am not against the water company purchase. Like Tom I believe the people have spoken. So, let's use all the monies available toward that purpose and not divert funds to other unworthy causes. This is Pine/Strawberry not Washington, D.C. where pork seems to rule.
Posted by SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) on May 5, 2008 at 10:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
RCW made all sorts of unsubstantiated accusations in the last battle. The cruelest one of all was corruption. To bring this accusation up again after the hardworking volunteers have been removed is really hitting below the belt.
Could it be that RCW is now slinging the accusation to diffuse the reasons Barbara Hall (actions of the present board that are possibly illegal but definitely unethical) gave for her imminent resignation from the board?
If you have the facts state them and have the authorities bring charges. It is not too late.
Posted by Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) on May 5, 2008 at 11:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Bernice,
"Could it be that RCW is now slinging the accusation to diffuse the reasons Barbara Hall (actions of the present board that are possibly illegal but definitely unethical) gave for her imminent resignation from the board?"
Is that statement an "unsubstantiated accusation" itself? If what we all want is the truth and factual information then it is everyone's responsibility to put these bitter confrontations away and get on with resolving the issue. Certainly there are going to be as many "opinions" as there are residents and not everyone is going to be happy with the exact method or procedures used to seek resolution to the problem. But it seems some just can not let go of their disappointment and want to continue to stir the pot. Many of us will not get directly involved in this just because of that circumstance. I can only hope that given some time those wounds will heal and both communities can move forward, but knowing human nature I am not holding my breath.
Posted by SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) on May 5, 2008 at 12:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I was not theorizing about Barbara Hall's reasons -- that was what she said. I am theorizing about what RCW's motives are based on my past experience with them. I am quite willing to put the hatchet away. However, I just boil when someone accuses hardworking, honest volunteers of being corrupt when the "battle" is over. The former board is gone. Why continue to call them corrupt especially when there is no proof. It was a cheap shot.
This is a small community and let's not call our neighbors corrupt.
Posted by SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) on May 5, 2008 at 2:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am really on my soap box today. (Just don't get me going on corruption :-).) At the May 1st meeting, Bill Haney announced that PSWID has submitted an 11 page proposal to Brooke Utilities dealing with a possible purchase of the water companies. So, I believe the Board is progressing toward their goal of purchasing the water companies.
As I have said before, no one should be surprised by this water companies purchase. Michael Greer sat at the front table at more than one RCW meeting and said that he wanted to purchase the water companies, at another RCW meeting Steve Morken presented a financial plan dealing with the water companies purchase, at the RCW candidates barbeque Ray Pugel presented the four candidates with a letter of "intent to serve" providing the water companies were purchased. Etc.
So, Tom, I do not think Strawberry residents have any basis for objecting to purchasing the water company. For that matter, no one in the area should have any objection. Before the election, RCW made its intent to purchase very clear. A vote for their candidates was a vote to purchase the water companies.
I hope that the purchase is done in a manner that protects of the interests of the taxpayer afterall we are footing the bill.
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on May 5, 2008 at 2:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jane,
Not trying to criticize you, but would appreciate and answer to my questions because I do not see where I said anything derogatory about RCW.
Mistake?
Posted by AZangel99 (Jane Wilcox) on May 9, 2008 at 12:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey, Tom - wasn't ignoring you - just have a life to handle right now.... :-)
I didn't say that you said anything derogatory about RCW, all I was saying was that it is no longer necessary for RCW to function. And, as I mentioned, we support (or not) the decisions of PSWID. So, my mistake if I didn't make it clear, and I wasn't being critical of you.
Bernie, you and I will probably never see eye to eye on anything. If I feel that the previous board members were corrupt, I have substantiated proof of it, in that which I've read and have listened to accounts from upstanding citizens of the community. If I want to call them corrupt, I will. We ALL volunteer our time, efforts and energy into community service in one way or another, but I certainly don't stand on a mountain top and shout out how much effort or financial support I've invested. I feel that giving should be just that - giving - without accolades.
Barbara Hall's resignation was a shock to everyone, and trust me, she will be throughly questioned at the next meeting of the PSWID since it is mandatory that it be an agenda item. I suggest that if you're interested, you should attend. It will be May 17th (Saturday) at 2pm. MY understanding was that she did not make it clear that the "illegal" activity she referred to had to do with the PREVIOUS board members.
Ok, back to my life....
:-)
Posted by patrandall (pat Randall) on May 9, 2008 at 1:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Does Barbara have to explain anything to anyone?
Posted by Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) on May 9, 2008 at 1:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Beats me.
I'm starting a PSWID MG2 string. This one is too long.
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